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CSM 8 - Vote for yourself, choose direct democracy and Night Beagle

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Author
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#81 - 2013-02-15 18:50:16 UTC
SojournerRover wrote:
Quote:
Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important...So what is the point of any other CSM? Because according to you they are only a sounding board to bounce ideas off of.


You have mixed two quotes together taking them out of context!


I wanted to rebut them both at once, hence the ellipsis between them. Ellipses in quotes denote skipped text between the two statements, you know. If you would like, I can split them into two quote boxes, but it's a waste of space.

edit: oh my god, what have the forums done to the quotes in this post, I have had to edit this twice to remove stray quote brackets
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#82 - 2013-02-15 23:10:46 UTC
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
SojournerRover wrote:
Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important...So what is the point of any other CSM? Because according to you they are only a sounding board to bounce ideas off of.


That is the point of the CSM. We vote for someone who we know understands w-space and can provide feedback to CCP in our absence on issues we do not yet know exist.

Take the force field issue with modular POSes. Two step was there (and so were various nullsec residents) to respond to CCP that force fields were a part of the terrain and some kind of safe in-space staging would be needed to replace that, if force fields had to go. We didn't hear about this until two months after the summit, because it took that long for the minutes to be written and the information therein approved to be released from NDA. You will not be able to solicit feedback on matters like that. I don't think anyone anticipated that force fields would be on the chopping block.

If the candidate's only understanding of w-space comes from the rest of us telling you about the place where you live and you are unwilling to accept that we want you -- nay, are entreating you -- to function on your own, then that is not a candidate that I want. I am not looking for crowdsourcing. I am looking for someone who knows that they do not need to be told what w-space wants or needs. If there is additional discussion, as modular POSes inspired, then the CSM's job is to facilitate communication between players and devs once that discussion is allowed to happen.

Night Beagle needs to have a long sit-down with Two step if he wants to turn this campaign around. He hasn't been listening thus far when the person currently on the CSM tells him that this proposed idea does not work with the CSM structure. He hasn't been listening to the feedback he's getting from the w-space community right now to shape his campaign into something we might want to vote for. Even if I wanted a crowdsourcing CSM, one who covers his ears and screams to drown out the noise whenever anyone challenges his preconceived notions would be the last thing I looked for.


This is exactly correct. If Night Beagle wants my advice, he should feel free to take me up on my consulting services. I have already given him plenty of free advice in this thread/trainwreck.

SojournerRover wrote:
quote snipped


Is Night Beagle your alt? You seem to be doing a lot of explaining things for him. If he wants to be on the CSM, he is going to need to speak up for himself.

You have said that he "has experience in this game", but I haven't heard him explain even a tiny bit of his game experience. When did he start playing? What has he done other than w-space? What has he done *in* w-space? His killboard history is very thin, does he consider himself a PVPer? A Miner?

These are very basic questions that Mr. Beagle seems to deflect every time they are asked. The problem is, they are critical to his campaign, and he doesn't seem to get that.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Winthorp
#83 - 2013-02-15 23:22:07 UTC
Night Beagle wrote:
@Winthorp: I have stated that I was not into forum playing or types of social interaction that enriches the out of game experience, and like many other current and past candidates I intend to remedy that in order to be able to provide the best flow of information.
Therefore you can see that I am currently active in the forums, and recently on Twitter @NightBeagle .


And what you still dont grasp is as a CSM rep we want someone who has had along term interest in Wh's and not some pop up weirdo that has never had any interaction with us at all. You promise us a lot and have no history of anything.
chris elliot
Wildcard.
#84 - 2013-02-16 00:23:11 UTC
Night Beagle wrote:


However, I will be delighted to keep hearing from you how CCP works and how CSM is.



Two things, one I have quite a lot of experience dealing with large corporations and their interactions with people regarding intellectual property, mostly engineering, blueprints and other corporate assets that my employment is expressly hinged upon no one that is not approved knowing about. This is in no way a far stretch from what CCP's relationship is with the CSM. You are there, and exist solely because they allow you to be there.

You are being made privy to their intellectual property, and as such agree to be bound to whatever rules they set upon you. Failure to grasp that concept will lead you down a long, painful, litigious and expensive path. If I wished to delve deeper onto that subject I would run myself, though the presence of Cipreh, Nathan, Ayeson, and Chitsa would make that endevour largely irrelevant anyway. But know that I am very much aware of how structures like CCP's work, because it is not in any way unique. I have also been paying attention when two step talks and what he talks about and when he says things that are pertinent, especially to people like you, I make notes. You however do not seem to do so.

SojournerRover wrote:


So what is the point of any other CSM? Because according to you they are only a sounding board to bounce ideas off of. CCP can quell the discourse in any manner they chose and this is true, but let us not forget they may have the intellectual copy right but the players have the cash to pay for that property. If those players chose to spend their money elsewhere then CCP is rendered useless. They only provide a product, it is up to the players if they want to pay for that product. Thefore it is in CCP's best interest to allow the player base some actual input. So to claim that CCP or for that matter any corporation are dictatorships and that they are only responsible to themselves falls in the realm of …..

Remember the Jita monument?



That is exactly what they are and that is all they ever will be. They are not game designers, their existence is in no way impacting to the game from the point of making changes within it. Your role in the CSM is that of an adviser, one who can serve as an "expert" when called upon to give an opinion of ideas that CCP has come up with. What CCP does with that opinion is neither your concern nor for the most part, any of your business. This is how dictatorships work, this is how they always work and it is on this basis that corporations both exist and prove to be more efficient than governments.

While the players at large may have the cash in some form, they are in no way paying for the intellectual property. The players merely pay for a license to indulge in the use of that property within the confines of the EULA, a violation of which can terminate your license. You the player have no claim or right to claim on any of that property. You seem to forget that you are only one, maybe two people paying for an account. Your total contribution to that "cash" is nigh on insignificant compared to the financial damage that can be caused a company by some non employee nitwit violating the NDA in any way. You also seem to think that you are somehow important in this game for one reason or another.

The CSM is, for the most part, a farce cultured by CCP for the placation of plebeians such as yourself who believe that they are in some way entitled to meddle in the affairs of CCP by way of being a customer. The only thing that keeps the CSM from being a complete farce are these elections where they allow said plebeians to vote on who they want to send to Iceland to sit and be told how things actually are and are going to be. Once that is done the interaction between CCP and the CSM is no more than a litmus test for their design ideas and criteria. The game was functioning fine before the creation of the CSM, its removal will/would do nothing to change that.


A corporation that is not a dictatorship will fail, it will become too slow, too bogged down with irrelevancies, and too tied up in bureaucracy to do anything and it will fall apart. Look at any decent company an you will find this to be the case, you don't even have to look very hard either.
SojournerRover
Explorer Corps
#85 - 2013-02-16 04:26:39 UTC
lol

[b][u]ROVER[/u] (REDRUM)[/b]

Winthorp
#86 - 2013-02-16 04:27:46 UTC
SojournerRover wrote:
lol


Yes we do consider your alt to be very humorous.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
#87 - 2013-02-16 06:10:05 UTC
I don't think SojournerBeagle is going to get elected

No trolling please

Nathan Jameson
Grumpy Bastards
#88 - 2013-02-16 06:11:57 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
I don't think SojournerBeagle is going to get elected


I can personally confirm that Rover is not the same person as Beagle. Take that for what you will.

http://www.wormholes.info

Winthorp
#89 - 2013-02-16 06:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Nathan Jameson wrote:
Bane Nucleus wrote:
I don't think SojournerBeagle is going to get elected


I can personally confirm that Rover is not the same person as Beagle. Take that for what you will.


Well they both have suspiciously similar dog names, take that for what you will. Twisted
Nathan Jameson
Grumpy Bastards
#90 - 2013-02-16 06:24:27 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Well they both have suspiciously similar dog names, take that for what you will. Twisted


They don't sound a thing alike on TeamSpeak.

http://www.wormholes.info

Winthorp
#91 - 2013-02-16 06:27:10 UTC
Nathan Jameson wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Well they both have suspiciously similar dog names, take that for what you will. Twisted


They don't sound a thing alike on TeamSpeak.


The mystery continues.
Night Beagle
Beagle Inc
#92 - 2013-02-16 16:53:00 UTC

Quote 1
Quote:

Two Step

This is exactly correct. If Night Beagle wants my advice, he should feel free to take me up on my consulting services. I have already given him plenty of free advice in this thread/trainwreck.


In fact you have did the following: argue that CSM is not what I think, that my idea will not work and that I should fall into the crowd of chest beating politic style which seems to be appreciate by forum posters instead of supporting crowdsourcing. While the first two seems to be your beliefs and I take them as is without trying to convince you of the contrary even if we disagree on the arguments and ideas, the third point is in fact the key to the whole debate. Can one compare apples and pears. Can one

Quote 2

Quote:

Two Step
...I haven't heard him explain even a tiny bit of his game experience. When did he start playing? What has he done other than w-space? What has he done *in* w-space? His killboard history is very thin, does he consider himself a PVPer? A Miner?


I did explain in Xanders interview what I have done until now, pointing that I am not specialized in any way, being a all rounded character that sometimes PVP, sometimes do PI, and sometimes mines. I can fly almost all subcaps of 3 races, being in progress to train for the 4th, I cannot fly exhumers of fit most of mining crystals, I have limited PI skills and no Research/Invention. So in fact I might be considered as PVP/PVE type of player. Also I have explored WH's since 2011, and exclusively lived in them since the end of that year. Just a few click ingame go a long way in showing the date of creation and corp history.

Also I am not a forum warrior, but part of the majority of players that do not visit or just read the forums. This is being held against me, but remember that the forum is in fact being visited by a minority of players.
But all this are inconsequential, as what I propose is not to vote the best player in a specific field but to vote for the idea of greater participation.

On the alt accusations, I will participate in other podcasts and as already shown by Xanders interview, I definitely am not the alt of one of my supporters. However I do expect more attacks against him for the simple reason of supporting a candidate that makes the status quo shaky. Changes to the voting system and CSM are coming and I do hope that the current stagnant state of play will be changed.




The world needs you to stop being boring!

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#93 - 2013-02-17 23:48:29 UTC
Night Beagle wrote:

Quote 1
Quote:

Two Step

This is exactly correct. If Night Beagle wants my advice, he should feel free to take me up on my consulting services. I have already given him plenty of free advice in this thread/trainwreck.


In fact you have did the following: argue that CSM is not what I think, that my idea will not work and that I should fall into the crowd of chest beating politic style which seems to be appreciate by forum posters instead of supporting crowdsourcing. While the first two seems to be your beliefs and I take them as is without trying to convince you of the contrary even if we disagree on the arguments and ideas, the third point is in fact the key to the whole debate. Can one compare apples and pears. Can one




Yes, one can compare apples and pears. In fact, in this case, that is exactly what you are asking us to do, but the election is only for apples. You are the pear.

If you accept the 2nd of my supposed points, then you are saying your idea won't work. Nowhere did I say you should "fall into the crowd of chest beating politic style". I said you need to have actual views of your own on things, and you need to post them here, because as you accepted above, your idea will not work.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Light Poodle
Doomheim
#94 - 2013-02-17 23:59:53 UTC
Since Mr. Beagle has made it clear how fond he is of greek political ideas, in the spirit of camaraderie, I should mention that there is one Athenian practice that I would love to see implemented here. Ostracism. Slightly modified. Instead of having everyone vote on it, I would just get to choose someone who then has to GTFO for some determined length of time. I already have a list started...
Night Beagle
Beagle Inc
#95 - 2013-02-18 22:34:12 UTC
@Two step I said I accepted that these are your beliefs, and they cannot be changed by my arguments. I still consider you are wrong, but I am accepting that one does not have to convince everyone :)
About apples and pears, I will state once again: is not about candidates, but about platforms. Or convince me I am wrong and make a list of skills/traits to be compared :)
Also I noticed that many candidates are beginning to nuance their speech in stressing out how they will represent and how they will operate with "the community". I will not take credit for the idea, but I do think me "being a pear" is helping drive the discussion towards a better result.
PS: I like the idea of having a tournament, as it will make a good entertainment event, but useless as "primaries". I see it with candidates flying identical fitted T1 frigates, from all races, 4 matches candidate vs candidate, a point system, and several days of fighting. Let's make it interesting :)

@Light Poodle I am more of a Pirate Party fan than Athenian and I am honestly astonished by some ideas brought on EVE forums and not disputed. I am referring especially at the points raised by some players in the topics about elections, where they state that most of the players are dumb/not interested and only a handfull of ubercool guys should be allowed to decide. That reminds me of a story about why SAT tests were invented in USA (to wed out the poor children's from educational system) or some European ideas about the superior race. I find them not only offensive but on the verge of illegal. I know EVE is a sandbox, but some statements go too far.
I wouldn't mind though a system to take out a CSM member but the same method you choose him, respectively to have a voting system to remove not only to nominate.

The world needs you to stop being boring!

Malception
Dutch Rudder Trading Company
#96 - 2013-02-18 23:13:06 UTC
lol, seems like everything that comes out of InSid is made of tears. This is great!
Winthorp
#97 - 2013-02-18 23:15:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
I think i am all out of words now. Shocked Only so much Gibberish i can read through.
Tisisan
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#98 - 2013-02-18 23:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tisisan
Night Beagle wrote:
some European ideas about the superior race.


Guys guys, this is serious! If we don't vote for him the (former german ruling party beginning with an N) win!
Night Beagle
Beagle Inc
#99 - 2013-02-18 23:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Night Beagle
Keep trolling guys :)







PS The topics I am referring to do not belong to any of the WH candidates, and you can easily find them in the Assembly and Jita sections.

The world needs you to stop being boring!

Sorany
Farmhouse.
Simple Farmers
#100 - 2013-02-19 05:23:32 UTC
I for one, think your ideas are fantastic and cannot wait to vote for Ayeson!!!

Big smile