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CSM 8 - Vote for yourself, choose direct democracy and Night Beagle

First post First post
Author
chris elliot
Wildcard.
#61 - 2013-02-14 20:08:16 UTC
Night Beagle wrote:
@Two Step: glad you like it (phun intended) The sistem will be there no matter the election results, however without somebody to bring the discussion to CSM its efficiency will be lower.



His point, you missed it entirely.

Without someone to have the testicular fortitude to make a decision on their own based on experience and knowledge of the game, their existence is a complete waste of everyone's time, and in particular, CCP's money.

You are as useless a candidate as Darius III. While he promised to do things and did nothing, you are promising to do.... essentially nothing at all.
Night Beagle
Beagle Inc
#62 - 2013-02-14 21:10:46 UTC
"THINGS.." Every candidate promises to do things. However what type of things are promised shows the posibillity to realize them.
I promise to make the community voice heard. If one promises to change a specific feature, I call upon him to prove it can be done. By contrary, my platform if perfectly feasible.

The world needs you to stop being boring!

chris elliot
Wildcard.
#63 - 2013-02-14 21:36:44 UTC
Your platform stipulates that you do something which you will not legally be allowed to do. As a lawyer you should know this already. Ergo you have no platform.
Night Beagle
Beagle Inc
#64 - 2013-02-14 21:43:44 UTC
My platform states that I will organize a system that collects community input and presents it in a organized and justified form to CCP. It does not state that will be used during CSM meetings or used to break the NDA as wrongly has been presented by others not by me.
Ergo...is the only solution that has a chance of really helping to represent the community. ;)

The world needs you to stop being boring!

Phaderift
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#65 - 2013-02-14 22:43:53 UTC
So, can i ask for a demo of this software to be set up prior to voting? Also why not get the best of both worlds .. have you setup this software and system and then send a more experienced and viable candidate who has the back round to stand on their own behind closed doors to the CSM? Seems like this would be the best option.

You are willing to do the work based on the idea that the community's voice is heard, which is admirable but does not require a seat on the CSM. So lets do that? Set up the software and then hand control over to the elected candidate, or just manage it and hand them the results. Then we can ensure our interests are both heard on issues that are public and we have someone who knows WH space and the game in general who can maintain the interests of the WH community when issues are raised that cannot go public . Any thoughts on this?

Also if you are not elected would you still commit to getting this liquid software off the ground ?
chris elliot
Wildcard.
#66 - 2013-02-15 01:20:43 UTC  |  Edited by: chris elliot
So you are essentially promising to be a one trick pony then? Take a short list of things small and unimportant things with you and if they are never covered you are useless and a waste of votes and CCP's money.

Since there is a high to definite probability that the things discussed in the CSM are never even on your initial list. If something new comes up, which is CCP's job, and the reason we pay them, are you willing to relinquish your voice and say in those matters because it was not voted on previously?

What would you do when a situation arises that has not been voted on? You obviously will not be able to poll for opinions in any way because of the immediate nature of the situation and the fact that since you have been presented with said situation you are now implicitly bound by the NDA. You forget that this game is not a democracy, it is a corporate dictatorship, you do as they say. If you dislike it, goodbye.
SojournerRover
Explorer Corps
#67 - 2013-02-15 03:07:49 UTC  |  Edited by: SojournerRover
I think you guys are missing the point.

The liquid democracy gives you what the players want and expects the CSM to fight for. If something else is brought up that is not on the list then why would your CSM fight for it? He could offer an opinion but that would only be his opinion not yours.

Night Beagle would be coming onto the board with a mandate created by the players for the players. Yes, he would only be the messenger of what the players want, but it would be your decision. Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important and then slugging it off because that CSM thinks he knows what is best for you and ends up bending to the will of CCP. Two faces so to speak?

If it is something that comes out of the blue then I would expect any CSM to take it back to the players and find out what they think. And yes possibly put it up for a vote if the players deem it is important.

I think you need to focus on the idea of liquid democracy first before trying to determine if Night Beagle is the right man to monitor the program which I think he is.

[b][u]ROVER[/u] (REDRUM)[/b]

Omen Nihilo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-02-15 03:17:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Omen Nihilo
Either
A) We are all being massively trolled,
Or
B) This guy is a self-decieved delusional individual devoid of common sense.Blink

I'd give it a 50/50 chance.
Winthorp
#69 - 2013-02-15 03:23:59 UTC
SojournerRover wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point.

The liquid democracy gives you what the players want and expects the CSM to fight for. If something else is brought up that is not on the list then why would your CSM fight for it? He could offer an opinion but that would only be his opinion not yours.

Night Beagle would be coming onto the board with a mandate created by the players for the players. Yes, he would only be the messenger of what the players want, but it would be your decision. Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important and then slugging it off because that CSM thinks he knows what is best for you and ends up bending to the will of CCP. Two faces so to speak?

If it is something that comes out of the blue then I would expect any CSM to take it back to the players and find out what they think. And yes possibly put it up for a vote if the players deem it is important.

I think you need to focus on the idea of liquid democracy first before trying to determine if Night Beagle is the right man to monitor the program which I think he is.


I think you miss the point to be honest, he is a guy that openly said in the interview that he hasn't bothered to get into discussions with the community and then said he would do consultation with the community if elected because that's his "job" So he would only give a **** if we elect him?

His system for voting is straight up absurd.

We vote for a WH representative for the platform they stand for and as we don't expect them to bring game changing platforms with them (As we all know there is little point to expect them to get it achieved with CCP). The most important part of a WH representative i feel is their WH experience and knowledge and their ability to know on hand in meetings and discussions with CCP if they will affect us adversely or otherwise.

I would be pissed if we had a representative such as this with minimal long term WH and larger gameplay experience that would go to meetings with CCP and fail to represent our interests and need to bring back every minor bloody change to us to vote upon before he could then discuss it with CCP.

Sure i didn't agree with every opinion Two Step had in Wh's but i felt assured that in meetings with CCP he could comfortably represent our interests and not let any changes to the entire game affect WH's adversely.

This candidate i have absolute no confidence in and regardless of changes to the voting system if he is elected i feel bad **** will happen. I so far feel confident in the other four Wh candidates irregardless of my alliance allegences.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-02-15 03:44:14 UTC
wait so do I vote for myself or night bagle?
Night Beagle
Beagle Inc
#71 - 2013-02-15 08:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Night Beagle
I love the smell of knowledge in the morning.
How about this: http://liquidfeedback.org/
Read what is all about and give it a try yourself. Also it might be worth to mention that the Pirate Party (a real party, getting around 8% in regional elections in Germany) is using it to benefit form crowdsourcing the decisions. If it exists and works there, why would not function in a game?

Remember to attack my person, it is called ad hominem and is the favorite weapon of politicians and interest groups feeling the change coming.
Also, remember to mock the idea to discredit it, as you are absolutely right and the other millions of people on the planet making democracy happen are wrong. There can be only one...THE all knowing leader the will lead us to victory...oh, sorry that was ... hmmmm.
Big smile

BTW I highly recommend you the topics covering the changes in the CSM voting system...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194431
and
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=152799&find=unread

The world needs you to stop being boring!

chris elliot
Wildcard.
#72 - 2013-02-15 10:36:27 UTC
Real life democracy does not translate into a corporate structure where your existence is as a guest. Which is a disconnect you and your ridiculous backers do not seem to understand. I am guessing you have never operated in a structure like CCP's or any other company that fiercely guards its intellectual property or you would not be so adamant about this.

The relationship between CCP and the CSM is not like a government and its subjugated masses as you like to reference so much. It is a corporate dictatorship, they(CCP) can and will make any demands of you(CSM) they wish. Including not allowing you to speak to us regarding matters they discuss with you. As two step said, once elected you are not allowed to tell us ANYTHING at all of what goes on over there. Nothing, zip, zero, nada. It is not and has no bearing on some idiot group of pirate hackers that spew propaganda on reddit to other idiot pirate hackers to make electoral statistics in idiot riddled political structures.


If CCP has something to say THEY will do the talking and the CSM will shut up until they are told otherwise. That means YOU, will be shutting up until THEY say you can talk, and only about what they say you are allowed to talk about. Which they would have previously published anyway before granting you permission to speak. Think of it like North Korea and you are a scientist that works on their bottle rocket program.

Think about this for a little bit. You rely on the fact that you can give an opinion in the absence of a vote measure, which in a normal governmental system would work. In a corporate dictatorship, it is not allowed and punishable quite severely under the law. So you are pretty much constantly relying on your opinion, and that opinion has already been voted on by way of your platform. Which only happens once, since it can only happen, once.

So even if by some miracle your feeble brain managed to compile a list, it would be short, and largely irrelevant to what the CSM does with CCP. And once compiled however it would instantly be rendered useless because CCP can jolly well do whatever they like with their property. You are simply there as a sounding board to give opinions on the really really stupid ones.


Your job is not to be some useless parrot that sits there and does nothing until it is allowed to speak, your job is to understand those around you well enough to stand up and make a decision on their behalf. When CCP in their good graces allows you to talk, then they will give you a nice sheet of bullet points you can talk to us about but by that point we would have already read the dev blog and you would merely fade into being a puppet.

Night Beagle
Beagle Inc
#73 - 2013-02-15 10:45:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Night Beagle
chris elliot wrote:

.... you and your ridiculous backers do not seem to understand....
...
So even if by some miracle your feeble brain managed to compile a list, ....


I think that the quotes above are self explanatory. Thank you for supporting my previous message.

However, I will be delighted to keep hearing from you how CCP works and how CSM is.

Also I am interested in your opinion on the issue we are really talking about, forwarding a real input of the community to the CCP.



PS: in your next post do not forget to make some references to putting bounties in game and finding my afk details in order to make sure I get your message.

The world needs you to stop being boring!

SojournerRover
Explorer Corps
#74 - 2013-02-15 13:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: SojournerRover
chris elliot wrote:
Real life democracy does not translate into a corporate structure where your existence is as a guest. Which is a disconnect you and your ridiculous backers do not seem to understand. I am guessing you have never operated in a structure like CCP's or any other company that fiercely guards its intellectual property or you would not be so adamant about this.

The relationship between CCP and the CSM is not like a government and its subjugated masses as you like to reference so much. It is a corporate dictatorship, they(CCP) can and will make any demands of you(CSM) they wish. Including not allowing you to speak to us regarding matters they discuss with you. As two step said, once elected you are not allowed to tell us ANYTHING at all of what goes on over there. Nothing, zip, zero, nada. It is not and has no bearing on some idiot group of pirate hackers that spew propaganda on reddit to other idiot pirate hackers to make electoral statistics in idiot riddled political structures.


If CCP has something to say THEY will do the talking and the CSM will shut up until they are told otherwise. That means YOU, will be shutting up until THEY say you can talk, and only about what they say you are allowed to talk about. Which they would have previously published anyway before granting you permission to speak. Think of it like North Korea and you are a scientist that works on their bottle rocket program.

Think about this for a little bit. You rely on the fact that you can give an opinion in the absence of a vote measure, which in a normal governmental system would work. In a corporate dictatorship, it is not allowed and punishable quite severely under the law. So you are pretty much constantly relying on your opinion, and that opinion has already been voted on by way of your platform. Which only happens once, since it can only happen, once.

So even if by some miracle your feeble brain managed to compile a list, it would be short, and largely irrelevant to what the CSM does with CCP. And once compiled however it would instantly be rendered useless because CCP can jolly well do whatever they like with their property. You are simply there as a sounding board to give opinions on the really really stupid ones.


Your job is not to be some useless parrot that sits there and does nothing until it is allowed to speak, your job is to understand those around you well enough to stand up and make a decision on their behalf. When CCP in their good graces allows you to talk, then they will give you a nice sheet of bullet points you can talk to us about but by that point we would have already read the dev blog and you would merely fade into being a puppet.



Really, name calling?
my my my!

So what is the point of any other CSM? Because according to you they are only a sounding board to bounce ideas off of. CCP can quell the discourse in any manner they chose and this is true, but let us not forget they may have the intellectual copy right but the players have the cash to pay for that property. If those players chose to spend their money elsewhere then CCP is rendered useless. They only provide a product, it is up to the players if they want to pay for that product. Thefore it is in CCP's best interest to allow the player base some actual input. So to claim that CCP or for that matter any corporation are dictatorships and that they are only responsible to themselves falls in the realm of …..

Remember the Jita monument?

[b][u]ROVER[/u] (REDRUM)[/b]

Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2013-02-15 14:00:50 UTC
SojournerRover wrote:
Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important


Ofcourse, i'm only speaking for myself here but that is exactly what I want. If it wasn't, I would be running for CSM myself.
Whoever I will vote for, will have earned my trust that he/she can come to the right decision on his own.
SojournerRover
Explorer Corps
#76 - 2013-02-15 14:26:03 UTC
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
SojournerRover wrote:
Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important


Ofcourse, i'm only speaking for myself here but that is exactly what I want. If it wasn't, I would be running for CSM myself.
Whoever I will vote for, will have earned my trust that he/she can come to the right decision on his own.



Fair enough.

[b][u]ROVER[/u] (REDRUM)[/b]

DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#77 - 2013-02-15 14:30:21 UTC
SojournerRover wrote:
Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important...So what is the point of any other CSM? Because according to you they are only a sounding board to bounce ideas off of.


That is the point of the CSM. We vote for someone who we know understands w-space and can provide feedback to CCP in our absence on issues we do not yet know exist.

Take the force field issue with modular POSes. Two step was there (and so were various nullsec residents) to respond to CCP that force fields were a part of the terrain and some kind of safe in-space staging would be needed to replace that, if force fields had to go. We didn't hear about this until two months after the summit, because it took that long for the minutes to be written and the information therein approved to be released from NDA. You will not be able to solicit feedback on matters like that. I don't think anyone anticipated that force fields would be on the chopping block.

If the candidate's only understanding of w-space comes from the rest of us telling you about the place where you live and you are unwilling to accept that we want you -- nay, are entreating you -- to function on your own, then that is not a candidate that I want. I am not looking for crowdsourcing. I am looking for someone who knows that they do not need to be told what w-space wants or needs. If there is additional discussion, as modular POSes inspired, then the CSM's job is to facilitate communication between players and devs once that discussion is allowed to happen.

Night Beagle needs to have a long sit-down with Two step if he wants to turn this campaign around. He hasn't been listening thus far when the person currently on the CSM tells him that this proposed idea does not work with the CSM structure. He hasn't been listening to the feedback he's getting from the w-space community right now to shape his campaign into something we might want to vote for. Even if I wanted a crowdsourcing CSM, one who covers his ears and screams to drown out the noise whenever anyone challenges his preconceived notions would be the last thing I looked for.
Night Beagle
Beagle Inc
#78 - 2013-02-15 15:05:54 UTC
@Winthorp: I have stated that I was not into forum playing or types of social interaction that enriches the out of game experience, and like many other current and past candidates I intend to remedy that in order to be able to provide the best flow of information.
Therefore you can see that I am currently active in the forums, and recently on Twitter @NightBeagle .

@Bloemkoolsaus: Chris Eliot just became my favorite source of quotations for today:
Quote:
....someone to have the testicular fortitude....

Just can't beat that roundness of a native English speaker, when asking to be lead. Well, it's a matter of taste and opinion.

@DJ P0N-3
Quote:
Night Beagle needs to have a long sit-down with Two step if he wants to turn this campaign around. He hasn't been listening thus far when the person currently on the CSM tells him that this proposed idea does not work with the CSM structure. He hasn't been listening to the feedback he's getting from the w-space community right now to shape his campaign into something we might want to vote for. Even if I wanted a crowdsourcing CSM, one who covers his ears and screams to drown out the noise whenever anyone challenges his preconceived notions would be the last thing I looked for.


While I cannot decide who wants to talk to me, and how much knowledge one is willing to share, I do remember the Two Step offer to coach candidates. As my decision to run is fairly recent I wonder if anyone took it.
I strongly believe that any wormholer that will reaches CSM should benefit from his experience.

On a separate idea, by the looks of the comments I have received until now, not much has been said except: it won't work, we want something else and show me the leader.
I take it as a sign that is working, at least to the point where people realize that there is a proposal on the table, and it can be used, or improved further.
However if what you would consider that an attitude of openness and dialogue consists of me falling into the gallery of leader figures and measuring some body parts, I regret but I have to take a stand for what I believe in, and that is crowdsourcing.
I continue to be available for any civilized dialogue and the votes will talk at the end.




The world needs you to stop being boring!

SojournerRover
Explorer Corps
#79 - 2013-02-15 15:07:44 UTC  |  Edited by: SojournerRover
I understand where you are coming from but lets look at it this way, say CCP comes up with something and poses it to the CSM's, the CSM's make their comments good or bad whatever the case may be. I can see where you may want an experienced player to make a comment on what CCP may come up with and Night Beagle does have experience in this game and is capable of making thoughtful comments on what CCP is interested in.

However since he has a mandate from the players and CSM's only have a limited time to try to get something done he does not get sidetracked by CCP to go down a road that may or may not be implemented. He continues to fight on what he knows the players want now. Not something that may come 2 years from now.

CCP has nothing to do with liquid democracy, it is only a way to achieve a mandate from the player base. Then use that mandate to push CCP for what the player base deems important.

I believe I may be over my two cents worth and closing in on a nickel so I will let it run its course for now



DJ P0N-3 wrote:
[quote=SojournerRover]Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important...So what is the point of any other CSM? Because according to you they are only a sounding board to bounce ideas off of.


You have mixed two quotes together taking them out of context!

[b][u]ROVER[/u] (REDRUM)[/b]

DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#80 - 2013-02-15 18:49:16 UTC
SojournerRover wrote:
I understand where you are coming from but lets look at it this way, say CCP comes up with something and poses it to the CSM's, the CSM's make their comments good or bad whatever the case may be. I can see where you may want an experienced player to make a comment on what CCP may come up with and Night Beagle does have experience in this game and is capable of making thoughtful comments on what CCP is interested in.

However since he has a mandate from the players and CSM's only have a limited time to try to get something done he does not get sidetracked by CCP to go down a road that may or may not be implemented. He continues to fight on what he knows the players want now. Not something that may come 2 years from now.

CCP has nothing to do with liquid democracy, it is only a way to achieve a mandate from the player base. Then use that mandate to push CCP for what the player base deems important.

I believe I may be over my two cents worth and closing in on a nickel so I will let it run its course for now



DJ P0N-3 wrote:
[quote=SojournerRover]Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important...So what is the point of any other CSM? Because according to you they are only a sounding board to bounce ideas off of.


You have mixed two quotes together taking them out of context!


I wanted to rebut them both at once, hence the ellipsis between them. Ellipses in quotes denote skipped text between the two statements, you know. If you would like, I can split them into two quote boxes, but it's a waste of space.