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Eve Central and the Contribtastic
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Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-02-13 15:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
I thought about this issue for some time and tbh I think I'd be fine with CCP killing cache scrapers completely.

One feature that sets EVE apart from other MMOs is that markets and order visibility are regional (instead of having one unified market place for the whole server) - this makes information about the market in other regions valuable and information gathering an essential part of trading.

Remember when you had price check alts at strategic locations (where you could use them to check several regions within a few jumps)?

The IGB + cache reader combination (which allows automated price updates for even the most exotic items) and the inclusion of a cache reader into evemon killed that part of gameplay almost completely.
Now we have relatively reliable and current price information on any item anywhere in the EVE universe.

This makes the regional markets more efficient (to the benefit of the customers) but it also makes trading much more boring.

A removal of cache readers would also be a small step towards revitalizing the contracts market - universe-wide visibility is a distinguishing feature of contracts and market orders being effectively visible in all of EVE through tools such as eve-central and eve-marketdata devalued that a lot.

The only feature I would really miss if cache reading was to be made impossible would be the ability to export the market history for items (but CCP could easily add an "export to file" button as exists already for orders).


CCP Sreegs has my axe.

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Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-02-13 16:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
For fairness' sake it needs to be pointed out that any significant nerf to the IGB + cache reader combination would most probably result in a massively increased use of bots - simple keyboard macros were common to refresh watchlisted items (and feed a cache reader) before the IGB gained that functionality and I have no illusions that clicking the "export to file" button (if cache reading were to be made impossible) could be automated just as well.

IGB + cache reader legalized a functionality that was previously achieved through bots and now that EVE players feel entitled to this functionality a removal would of course lead to an even bigger uptake of bots.

But an imperfect solution is still better than no solution and I think that enough traders would buy into Sreeg's scare rhetoric to make a real difference on the markets.

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#43 - 2013-02-13 16:13:59 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
And you'll get a GM reply, and when you'll state the GM is OK with it, then Sreegs will say he does not consider GM's replies authoritative and will say he's the one who in the end decides.


Better than nothing. And I would hope that CCP Sreegs would tell the GMs when specific, previously legal activities become illegal.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Charlepetit LaJoie
Trust Me Ltd
#44 - 2013-02-13 21:20:26 UTC
I thought EVE-Central was allowed under the CCP rules. However, CCP Sreegs posted yesterday that "cache scraping is illegal. You won't be banned for it today."

I admit I'd never heard of "cache scraping" before yesterday, so I'm more than a bit confused. Is it the automatic cycling through the market that is the problem? I don't have the patience to wait for Contribtastic to scroll slowly through every random item in the universe anyway. I'd rather click through selected items myself, then upload my cache afterward. Is that still allowed?

The quotes below are remarks from a forum thread that was not directly about either EVE-Central or cache scraping. It was one of those long threads that wander into a few side topics.

CCP Sreegs posted on February 12 about cache scraping (in a thread discussing other things):
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601747#post2601747

(Quoted in part)--
Quote:
Nemo deBlanc: "Are we to interpret this as official policy change on the issue of cache scraping?"
CCP Sreegs: "I've never agreed with it. My stance of 'Don't modify the client' hasn't changed since day one. That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant."


A post a bit later in the same thread from February 12:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788

(Quoted in part)--
Quote:
CCP Sreegs: "In my opinion cache scraping is illegal. You won't be banned for it today."


Another post in the same thread from February 12:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601845#post2601845

(Quoted in part)--
Quote:
Whitehound: "It has always been said that modifying the client, either on the network, on the disk or in memory, is against the EULA."
Wacktopia: "Technically, I think you can achieve this without modifying the client itself fwiw."
CCP Sreegs: "You can't do it without interacting with local files used by the client. In my perfect world those would be protected better. As I said you won't be banned for it today but that's why I take issue with it. We should be enabling this via the API instead."
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-02-13 22:05:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Charlepetit LaJoie wrote:
I admit I'd never heard of "cache scraping" before yesterday, so I'm more than a bit confused. Is it the automatic cycling through the market that is the problem?

no, your client stores (caches) the orders and history listing for items you view in the market window as a file on your hard-disk so that it doesn't have to request the same information over and over from the eve server when you are, for example, rapidly switching back and forth between two items.

after a short while the cache gets invalidated/expires and your client will request new, up-to-date information from the server the next time you view that item in the market window.

cache scraping refers to the process of extracting information from these (temporary) client files (without modifying them) - there are some applications of scraping the EVE client's cache other than to extract market information but these are very niche.

The eve-central uploader or the unified uploader included in EVEMon make use of cache scraping to acquire the amrket information they upload and there has been a long history of GM rulings that declared this method legal. Sreegs seems to disagree with these rulings and thinks cache scraping is in violation of the EULA - but for now this opinion does not have any direct effect (other than to make some of us a little uneasy).

I am sure that I'm not the only one who currently as a petition pending to ask for clarification regarding the implications of Sreeg's stance on cache scraping and his advise not to rely on GM petition replies when it comes to EULA issues. I am optimistic that we will hear more on this matter within the next weeks.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#46 - 2013-02-14 01:28:58 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:


A removal of cache readers would also be a small step towards revitalizing the contracts market - universe-wide visibility is a distinguishing feature of contracts and market orders being effectively visible in all of EVE through tools such as eve-central and eve-marketdata devalued that a lot.

The only feature I would really miss if cache reading was to be made impossible would be the ability to export the market history for items (but CCP could easily add an "export to file" button as exists already for orders).


CCP Sreegs has my axe.


A removal of cache readers would just push people into doing what I already do to create my candle charts when I can't bother using a cache scrapper. No, I don't export any file. P

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Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-02-14 09:43:03 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:


A removal of cache readers would also be a small step towards revitalizing the contracts market - universe-wide visibility is a distinguishing feature of contracts and market orders being effectively visible in all of EVE through tools such as eve-central and eve-marketdata devalued that a lot.

The only feature I would really miss if cache reading was to be made impossible would be the ability to export the market history for items (but CCP could easily add an "export to file" button as exists already for orders).


CCP Sreegs has my axe.


A removal of cache readers would just push people into doing what I already do to create my candle charts when I can't bother using a cache scrapper. No, I don't export any file. P

derp, that feature was way too obvious for me to find it ^^

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