Player Features and Ideas Discussion

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EDIT: In order to eliminate some confusion, I need to explain that these ideas are being suggested together, not as possible alternatives of each other. Clearly this does not mean that I expect you to accept or deny all of them as a single argument, simply to take them as ideas intended to work together.

The Solution

I can't see all of the possible results of all of my ideas, were they to be implemented. As such, I've weighed a number of ideas, my own and others, and these four changes would make the game more fun for me, personally:

1. Continue to make PvE more like PvP. When people need to fit their PvE ships like PvP ships to succeed, they are safer should they actually need to perform in an unexpected PvP encounter. This is obviously a longer-term fix and touches on more than just the issue at hand. Exactly how this should be done is an entirely different topic of discussion. However, the benefits are hard to argue with.

2. Limit the abilities of the covert ops cloak: specifically, disable the onboard scanner while a covert ops cloak is active. The idea here is that if a cloaked pilot needs to locate a cosmic anomaly (ratters are already "safe" in DED complexes), they need to decloak temporarily to do it, thus appearing on dscan if they are within dscan range of the site. The onboard scanner should not be changed in any way: if a pilot scans all sites before cloaking or runs an onboard scan outside of dscan range, they should still be able to surprise a PvE pilot in the site.

3. Place a reverse-delay on cloaked ships in local: specifically ships using an active covert ops cloak (normal cloaking devices are not an issue because ships need to decloak to warp, thus always appearing on direction scan before landing on a site). After a few minutes post-cloaking, the cloaked pilot should enter into a delayed mode where they only appear in local by typing. The effect should be retained after decloak for one minute, or until the player activates an active module. I honestly have absolutely no idea how feasible this portion is, I am only looking at this from a gameplay perspective.*

4. In counter to suggestion #3, ant anti-cloak mechanic of some sort should be added. Ideally this should be something that does not limit (or does not limit as much) the options for active covert operators but may make it more dangerous to afk-cloak (the justification here being that active players should be rewarded more than afk players, which I don't think is unreasonable). Originally I contemplated the previously-discussed option a long-delay cloak-scanning POS module, but there are three big problems with that, for me: there would be no work required (trained skills, no need to be at keyboard, etc) for the person or people doing the scan, the scanner is immune to counter-tactics, and it requires a POS. My best idea is to create a cloak-scanning probe type, which acts like a normal combat scan probe but can detect and locate cloaked ships as well; however, unlike normal probe types, these should constitute higher risk for the scanner. Firstly, cloak-scanning probes should only be launchable from covert-ops frigates, or perhaps only covert-ops frigates and recon ships. Secondly, when a cloak-scanning probe is active, the scanning ship should be in a similar state to a ship lighting a cynosural beacon: unable to move or cloak, instantly visible on the overview and therefore at a location that can be warped to from any point in the system.

* - There are those who prefer to be visible in local, in order to scare pilots into not actively ratting. My initial responses to this are A. people are less likely to rat if you're actually talking to them, proving that you are active, and B. the suggested mechanics make it more feasible to kill ratting ships, which is a more effective tactic for blocking someone's income than stopping them from running sites. However, an alternative would be to create a specific type of covert operations cloak which enters the user into delayed mode in local, and therefore allow players to choose between one module or another.

Discussion

As it stands, the mechanics don't favor players wanting to perform hostile covert operations, nor do they favor players interested in ratting in dangerous areas. They do allow players to interdict the resource generation of enemy groups, but at very limited investment, risk, and effort. What I want to see are sufficient options for counter-maneuvers, for all parties, to make meaningful interactions possible instead of the current boring standstills.

But what about other uses of the covert ops cloak? Bomber fleets, for instance? Hiding your off-grid-booster in a hostile area until you need to use it? In my opinion, the same basic issues apply: instant intel in local is too effectively countered by perfect cloaking, and perfect cloaking is too overpowered without instant local intel. Eliminate the perfect intel and the perfect defense, and everything benefits.

Further thoughts: clearly I haven't touched on everything, my intelligence and focus are finite. I'll try to voice an opinion on anything that I haven't addressed, and I'm very open to changing my position if I find other arguments compelling.

Please feel free to support, modify, or criticize these ideas. I'd like to really discuss this issue in depth, so I request please try not to troll too hard, and if you have a problem with an idea - mine or otherwise - I request that you attack the idea and not the person suggesting it.

Hi there.

You have a lengthy post detailing an idea to fix this dilemma.

I have a simpler idea, but one that still catches the key points.

Local is being used for intel. This is a horrible misuse of a chat channel, and it is so effective that there are no competing methods of intel gathering on it's level.
Noone hits D-Scan to tell if someone else is in system, they look at the chat channel.

Accepting this, I would suggest that all entries to local be filtered with this in mind.
No cloaked vessels.
No POS shielded vessels.
Noone who is docked.

Add to this, that the above described pilots will only see a version of local that is fully delayed, and has no roster of pilots who are in system.
You must decloak / leave the POS shield / or undock from the outpost, before you can see that pilot roster at all.

Add to this, a method of hunting cloaked vessels. I based this off of cloaking itself, so it should be balanced, and simple to connect with logically.

That is listed here:

---

The craft that actually does the hunting needs to be balanced against the cloaked vessels, or else it will be one sided.
There are plenty of ideas HOW to hunt a cloaked vessel already. Keeping it simple is probably best.
The proper combination of skills / specialized ship hull / modules should let the hunting pilot see the cloaked vessel, and subsequently paint them with a target painter like module, thereby allowing other players to see and lock onto the craft.

Differences between the hunted and hunter in skill and equipment quality would determine the time to lock and engage the target painter module, creating demand for the best available on both sides.
This time to lock would be expected to affect whether the cloaked pilot could evade a successful hunt.

Now, as to details how this works:
The hunting craft activates the painter module.
This activates an enhanced sensor decryption mode, which like cloaked vessels works better on certain hulls. The covops hulls themselves work better for this for many of the same reasons they work so well for cloaking devices. They can control and limit their own sensor emissions to a greater degree.
You can launch probes prior to activating this module, and use them and or D-Scan / active scan.
While in this operating mode, cloaked vessels appear to your sensors as if they were not cloaked, allowing you to detect them using normal means.
The only device you can use beyond sensors / probes, is the painting function. Locking onto the vessel using this takes an amount of time determined by the difference between your skills and equipment, and the cloaked pilot with their vessel.
Once you are locked on, they become visible to everyone, and can be locked and attacked normally.

Keep in mind, in hunting mode you can use your sensors, (including your probes), as if they had no active cloak.

The skills of the hunting player, with bonuses for ship and modules
Compared to
The skills of the cloaking player, with bonuses for ship and modules

This comparison of skills creates a lock time. Now, the range of this painter would basically be anywhere on the same grid.
It would not be directly painting a laser image like the regular module, but rebroadcasting a decoded version of the telemetry the cloaked vessel would have if it were not cloaked.

To evade this effect, the cloaked vessel needs to get off grid from the hunter. Very difficult to do, if you are not in a covert ops type craft, since warping then requires you to drop your cloak.

If you ARE in a covert ops style craft, you are not as much of a direct threat, but you are harder to catch if you are alert to being hunted. A fast locking tackle will probably be desirable to back up the hunting craft.

Stopped reading after the "on board scanner" idea

Anything coming after that cannot be intelligent.

Any changes to the way cloaking works, or a method to hunt said cloakers, has to take into account the Legitimate AFK Cloaker(someone that has cloaked up to use the Facilities) and thus a Legitimate AFK Cloaker should be safe for at least 10min.
So if you have a method for hunting down a cloaker, at maximum skills it will take 10min+

I'm not sure if I think anyone should be truly safe while undocked in null. Remember that if the cloak probes work like normal combat probes, and a cloaked covert ops ship is mobile (mine always are), it will likely be out of decloak range by the time the scanner lands, requiring some grid searching or real tactics ("triangulating" direction using time-offset scans) to actually find and decloak the ship. This by no means makes it *easy* do counter afk cloaking, just possible.

I think a simple solution would be to simply implement a cloak-probe. It requires high skills, perhaps Astrometrics 5 and an additional skill (tiny ISK sink). Call it Graviton Detection or something.

It can act like all other combat probes in that the items signature reflects how easy it is to scan something. Small stuff like stealth bombers will be fairly difficult, barely possible for medium SP players. Low science SP players won't be able to get them. Sorry, carrier pilots, you're screwed--better cloak next to a POS.

I agree w/ the OP that cloakers that are moving are going to be well off the spot you got the result by the time you warp to the location (assumes covops, around 200m/s). Anything else (cynabal, carrier, etc), you need to have an exit strategy.

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Hey Guys,

While reading your lengthy post I got an idea.

What if simply cloaky ships while there cloaking device is active they don't show up in local chat channel?

Need Local?

Only when the prey you are hunting is using it against you.
It simply does not balance to have one side able to detect and thereby respond to the other's presence with no effort.

If they choose to avoid you by docking up, or hiding in a shielded POS, local tells you whether they are still online, and that means they are in the system somewhere.
If you know any details on the target, you probably have an idea whether they are ratting or mining. D-scan the probable belts as well as the beacon items.

The biggest benefit it gives, is that a hunter knows the target is still there, somewhere.
Without local, you have uncertainty. Did they log off, or move to another system? A logical compromise to this doubt would be to stop looking after a period of time, and move on.

Local removes that doubt. You can't be fooled when it tells you for certain they have not left, but are trying to wait you out.

It takes about 3 minutes to decide if a person is just cloaked up and doing nothing. I refuse to use "AFK cloaker" because there is absolutely no way to tell this.

Before we move on, let's state a Fact™: A pilot is not required by any game mechanic, rule, or ToS/EULA to respond via chat in any channel, or communicate in any way to a standard player. So anyone stating that "they don't respond to chat requests" is falsely accusing that person of "being AFK".

You've already done a great job of stating that DED complexes need to be scanned down, therefore ships in those need to be scanned as well. Whether the other player scans the complex down or uses ship probes to locate the ship. Thus, the safety mechanic is built into the complex. This is absolutely fine.

As for anomalies, they are easy to find and therefore have an increased risk of player interaction. Seems RVR (Risk vs Reward) to me. I think this is absolutely fine.

Asteroid belts follow the same rules as anomalies: easy to find; easy to interact with. This is absolutely fine.

Here's the deal:

If you enter a system with gates and/or stations, then you show up on local. Period. It is in the lore. If you are unhappy with this mechanic, then you have the Choice™ to go to systems that do not follow these rules. Those are called wormholes. I'm guessing that if you spend a day inside one, you'd be praying for local to display pilots. If I am incorrect in that, I'll see you in a wormhole! Or not... (see what I did there?)

I will now take this space below me to point out some of the Facts of EVE that have existed for almost 10 years:

1. Do not fly what you cannot afford to lose.
2. Stay aligned. Always.
3. Don't fly ships made of paper and sticks. Use a tank.
3a. PVE ships will probably stand no chance against PVP. Vice versa is also true. Recognize.
4. Risk vs Reward (RVR)
5. Choice™
6. Don't fly solo.
7. Use intel. If none is available (because you are in enemy lands) that is part of the RVR trade off.

Thank you.