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Where's Red Frog an Push on this nerf NPC thing?
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#361 - 2013-02-07 03:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Aren Madigan wrote:

OK, I'm just going to come out and say this, how does not being in a player corp automatically mean they only play solo? They could work with various other people from various corps, NPC and player. Being in an NPC corp does not automatically mean solo play, it just means they don't have a specific group. And why should they be forced to?
Welcome to page 1 of this thread - NPC corps are used by large entities to gain competitive advantage over those who don't, while pressuring solo players to do likewise to adopt an asocial, low-risk, low emergent content "playstyle" in order to remain economically competitive. They should be forced to do so because it is bad for the game, disincentivising bonds and socialization in an MMO where those qualities are crucial for player retention.

Quote:
And also, Nicolo, note that specifically note that targeting a person to that extent does fall under griefing pretty distinctly, as it should. Funny how mechanics are also built to largely prevent that from happening with any efficiency, isn't it?
Right, NPC corps don't protect newbies. GM intervention protects newbies. So NPC corps and their wardec immunity can be removed since the mechanic that actually protects newbies (GMs) is still there.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#362 - 2013-02-07 03:56:15 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:

OK, I'm just going to come out and say this, how does not being in a player corp automatically mean they only play solo? They could work with various other people from various corps, NPC and player. Being in an NPC corp does not automatically mean solo play, it just means they don't have a specific group. And why should they be forced to?

And also, Nicolo, note that specifically note that targeting a person to that extent does fall under griefing pretty distinctly, as it should. Funny how mechanics are also built to largely prevent that from happening with any efficency, isn't it?

Automatically? It doesn't, but in practice, it usually does.

Thats the thing, you can cherry pick exceptions to any generalization, but cherry picking examples doesn't mean the generalization isn't generally true.

As far as I have been able to tell from my time in eve, during which I have done almost everything but run my own empire(including being an asocial carebear, tho I never stayed long in NPC corps because of the constant scams and spam in the channel) 95% of people in NPC corps have been alts or people hiding from wardecs.

And the alts were there to hide them from wardecs so people could make isk mindlessly, or post on the forums without fear of retaliation.

Kinda sad that so many people are now hiding in NPC corps with all their characters that 'Post with your main' is no longer a thing.


How do we know which one is doing the cherry picking here? Fact is, we don't really. Not reliably at least, so I'm not even going to bother discussing that part of it. Hell, your views of the scams and spam is different from my experience with it, I just didn't feel any real connection or motivation, but different people are going to have different mindsets. It be like looking at these forums and deciding that the community of EVE is terrible based off them alone.

Also don't get me started on the PLEX... its fine and dandy, but if it started being needed for stuff like that, the game could burn in hell.

Anyways, think at this point we've been going in circles long enough.... seriously though, if you want some changes, really should go with pushing something not so drastic... frankly there's no way one can say that its not a severe, massive and drastic change. Can believe its the right change all you want, but its a huge long reaching one that affects a lot more than the reasons why its often suggested. To expect something like that is pretty unrealistic.

Oh, CCP will not do anything this drastic, but before they will do anything at all, we have to convince them there is a problem.

Once we have gone through the hyperbole and drama needed to convince them of an issue, we can discuss more realistic ways to fix them Bear

Oh, and PLEX are not required to recover, but for $17.50 USD, its a quick and easy way to get back up to speed, and gives enough money to recover any operation.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2013-02-07 04:36:40 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:

OK, I'm just going to come out and say this, how does not being in a player corp automatically mean they only play solo? They could work with various other people from various corps, NPC and player. Being in an NPC corp does not automatically mean solo play, it just means they don't have a specific group. And why should they be forced to?

And also, Nicolo, note that specifically note that targeting a person to that extent does fall under griefing pretty distinctly, as it should. Funny how mechanics are also built to largely prevent that from happening with any efficency, isn't it?

Automatically? It doesn't, but in practice, it usually does.

Thats the thing, you can cherry pick exceptions to any generalization, but cherry picking examples doesn't mean the generalization isn't generally true.

As far as I have been able to tell from my time in eve, during which I have done almost everything but run my own empire(including being an asocial carebear, tho I never stayed long in NPC corps because of the constant scams and spam in the channel) 95% of people in NPC corps have been alts or people hiding from wardecs.

And the alts were there to hide them from wardecs so people could make isk mindlessly, or post on the forums without fear of retaliation.

Kinda sad that so many people are now hiding in NPC corps with all their characters that 'Post with your main' is no longer a thing.


How do we know which one is doing the cherry picking here? Fact is, we don't really. Not reliably at least, so I'm not even going to bother discussing that part of it. Hell, your views of the scams and spam is different from my experience with it, I just didn't feel any real connection or motivation, but different people are going to have different mindsets. It be like looking at these forums and deciding that the community of EVE is terrible based off them alone.

Also don't get me started on the PLEX... its fine and dandy, but if it started being needed for stuff like that, the game could burn in hell.

Anyways, think at this point we've been going in circles long enough.... seriously though, if you want some changes, really should go with pushing something not so drastic... frankly there's no way one can say that its not a severe, massive and drastic change. Can believe its the right change all you want, but its a huge long reaching one that affects a lot more than the reasons why its often suggested. To expect something like that is pretty unrealistic.

Oh, CCP will not do anything this drastic, but before they will do anything at all, we have to convince them there is a problem.

Once we have gone through the hyperbole and drama needed to convince them of an issue, we can discuss more realistic ways to fix them Bear

Oh, and PLEX are not required to recover, but for $17.50 USD, its a quick and easy way to get back up to speed, and gives enough money to recover any operation.


They're well aware there's a problem as it is. All asking for something drastic does is make certain players look like they don't give a damn about others or understand the problems with what they're asking for. Its rare people take extremists seriously.
Archer Codename Duchess
Doomheim
#364 - 2013-02-07 05:53:34 UTC
They should probably remove everything from high sec and turn it into a giant arena. They should move the systems of high sec into position to resemble a giant ****. This would be a symbol of what high sec was meant for. Also any new characters should be forced to fly around in their capsules for the first two years until they have paid their dues to the eve community. Then I would like anything with the words mining in it's description to be removed from the game; as it would be obsolete. Finally I would like CCP to give Goon Swarm free unlimited ships to disperse as they see fit to responsible pilots, thereby making Goon Swarm the DMV of Eve Online. Game fixed...
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#365 - 2013-02-07 05:55:37 UTC
all hail Goon Swarm
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#366 - 2013-02-07 07:55:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Wall o' text from both of us

There are 2 kinds of NPC corps, noob NPC corps which you can never go back to, and the other kind. Noob NPC corps should not be wardeccable, ever, but you should have to leave if you want to use T2 hulls or capships(freighters are caps), and perhaps one or 2 other markers that would indicate you can no longer claim you are a noob(if you can fly a mining barge, a T2 hull, or a capship of any variety, you are not a noob). This was all explained in my original post.

Essentially, noobs deserve protection, but once you are no longer a noob, you need to deal with the game, not hide from it.

Oh, and just because everyone has wardecced the NPC corp doesn't mean its a FFA, I have no idea wheere you came up with FFA.


So wait. A guy returns to EvE after a hiatus and finds his stuff now in an hostile sov. That's ok, his fault but already a deterrent.
Most of those he knew stopped playing (quite normal).
Then of course he finds out he got booted from his corp, he tries to get in a decent corp but of course those are picky and it takes 2-3 weeks.
Next thing he notices he can't undock with his ships (some at Jita, a L4 ship at Motsu to try grind ISK back) at all or he gets insta popped.

That's so cool, he is certainly going to stick with EvE and wait till he finds a corp accepting him!

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EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#367 - 2013-02-07 08:47:10 UTC
It doesn't take 2 to 3 weeks to get into a decent corp.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#368 - 2013-02-07 10:27:19 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
It doesn't take 2 to 3 weeks to get into a decent corp.


I forgot, if you are part of a 3rd party social network you don't have that issue.

EvE should have it well written on the box: "membership to SA / Dreddit / Ars Technica / F13 required" (or GTFO).

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Aracimia Wolfe
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#369 - 2013-02-07 12:38:33 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
It doesn't take 2 to 3 weeks to get into a decent corp.


I forgot, if you are part of a 3rd party social network you don't have that issue.

EvE should have it well written on the box: "membership to SA / Dreddit / Ars Technica / F13 required" (or GTFO).


I've seen TEST recruiting without the Reddit requirement. They had a couple of recruiters down Caldari space area fairly recently in fact.

Possibility it was a scam, but I'm fairly sure in that case it was legit.

Kill it with Fire!

Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#370 - 2013-02-07 13:45:38 UTC
El Digin wrote:
It doesn't take 2 to 3 weeks to get into a decent corp.


I spawned in a decent corp. Haven't looked back.
Bob Killan
Dzark Asylum
#371 - 2013-02-07 14:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bob Killan
IMO newbie corps serve their purpose for newbies. I think any new player should be allowed in an NPC corp for free for a 12 month period while they learn the ropes and find a home. After 12 months players should still be able to rejoin npc corps but at a cost to deter people abusing it to hide from other mechanics.

Ie charge people to rejoin npc corps say 50 mill ISK and things like a tax rate of 50% on all missioning, 50% on refining, and an additional 50% market tax going ot the npc corp.

Also set rules like if you currently involved in a war or have recently been war dec'd the npc will reject you applicaition for political reasons.

This would do a few things.

1) It would create a nice ISK sink for anyone who was deternined to stay npc regardless.
2) It would create massive advantages to being in a player run corp hence moving people towards them.
3) It would stop the "cliff" new players face when looking at player run corps and suddenly having to give them tax on bounties/mission income. Player corp tax is less so it a benefit and no longer a deterant.
4) It would reduce the ease at which older players abuse npc corps to do activities much more safely than they would otherwise be able too.
5) more corp would join together to protect themselves from the likes of goonswarm and would eventually lead to there downfall. They like shooting at defenceless players when they are guareented to win more than they lose (isk). If there was a risk they 'dget fleet stomped by a bigger power with no gain they would be less likely to continue with current activeties. Lets be honest they obviously enjoy the safety of HiSec just as much as the next man.

A further idea is to increase the costs of station services based on age for those in NPC, so insurance, clones, loyalty point store costs are all increased exponentially based on character age.

Make it uncomfortable to hide and less people will hide.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#372 - 2013-02-07 16:25:38 UTC
Bob Killan wrote:
Make it uncomfortable to hide and less people will hide.


No they won't, they'll just hide in 1 man corps instead and you'll have every single one of the same problems.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#373 - 2013-02-07 16:27:53 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
It doesn't take 2 to 3 weeks to get into a decent corp.


I forgot, if you are part of a 3rd party social network you don't have that issue.

EvE should have it well written on the box: "membership to SA / Dreddit / Ars Technica / F13 required" (or GTFO).

or you could just have friends

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#374 - 2013-02-07 17:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
It doesn't take 2 to 3 weeks to get into a decent corp.


I forgot, if you are part of a 3rd party social network you don't have that issue.

EvE should have it well written on the box: "membership to SA / Dreddit / Ars Technica / F13 required" (or GTFO).

or you could just have friends



I have plenty, they just happen to be scattered all over EvE, sometimes in corps red each to the other (edit: several used to be in my same PvP corp, then each went to their route).
In GW2 this is not an issue, a quick chat an all can get together to do stuff, in EvE it's like pouring salt on a wound.

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Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#375 - 2013-02-07 23:58:46 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
It doesn't take 2 to 3 weeks to get into a decent corp.


Quite often in the decent large corps I've noticed you need a friend in that corp, or essentially gotta go through a waiting list, or whatever. I'm not sure how true this is for TEST or Goons, but I'm preeeetty sure there's a reason that EVE has this reputation:

http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20120625

Just saying.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#376 - 2013-02-08 00:59:14 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
It doesn't take 2 to 3 weeks to get into a decent corp.


I forgot, if you are part of a 3rd party social network you don't have that issue.

EvE should have it well written on the box: "membership to SA / Dreddit / Ars Technica / F13 required" (or GTFO).

or you could just have friends



I have plenty, they just happen to be scattered all over EvE, sometimes in corps red each to the other (edit: several used to be in my same PvP corp, then each went to their route).
In GW2 this is not an issue, a quick chat an all can get together to do stuff, in EvE it's like pouring salt on a wound.

Great friends if they won't even loan you 10 mil to get back on your feet.

Oh, and nothing stops anyone from creating a 1 man corp to get out of the NPC corp. Skillbook costs 18k and takes 8 minutes to train without implants.

Any vet knows how to make 18k from nothing without being undocked long enough to die, annoying as it may be to do it that way.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2013-02-08 01:06:54 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Oh, and nothing stops anyone from creating a 1 man corp to get out of the NPC corp. Skillbook costs 18k and takes 8 minutes to train without implants.


You know, there's actually an irony in this statement I just realized... if part of the stated goal of this is to encourage people to be more socialable or whatever, why is one of the most common suggestions given to a particular problem with the suggestion one that further isolates them?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#378 - 2013-02-08 01:10:09 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:

Oh, and nothing stops anyone from creating a 1 man corp to get out of the NPC corp. Skillbook costs 18k and takes 8 minutes to train without implants.

Any vet knows how to make 18k from nothing without being undocked long enough to die, annoying as it may be to do it that way.


So, all the aerobatics and consequenceful NPC corps nerf (including subs wise) would lead to suggesting people to re-create a better NPC corp situation by creating their immediately disposable 1 man corp. Sounds alright! Roll

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Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#379 - 2013-02-08 01:11:24 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:

Oh, and nothing stops anyone from creating a 1 man corp to get out of the NPC corp. Skillbook costs 18k and takes 8 minutes to train without implants.

Any vet knows how to make 18k from nothing without being undocked long enough to die, annoying as it may be to do it that way.


So, all the aerobatics and consequenceful NPC corps nerf (including subs wise) would lead to suggesting people to re-create a better NPC corp situation by creating their immediately disposable 1 man corp. Sounds alright! Roll


I imagine the idea goes hand in hand with making corp hopping not viable either to be fair.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#380 - 2013-02-08 01:15:36 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
It doesn't take 2 to 3 weeks to get into a decent corp.


I forgot, if you are part of a 3rd party social network you don't have that issue.

EvE should have it well written on the box: "membership to SA / Dreddit / Ars Technica / F13 required" (or GTFO).

I regularly get awoxing alts into "decent corps" in literally minutes. If I can go to the recruitment channel, find a regular everyday corp to join and join it in about 10 minutes flat with a character with a ton of API verified awox kills and an employment history 3 miles long a legitimate person actually looking to join shouldn't have any kind of difficulty.