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Ded 5 Complexes in Hi-sec
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Teri Cox
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-02-03 13:12:12 UTC
As you can see herehttp://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/DED_Complex_List

is it possibile, that you can scan down DED 5 Plexes in Hi-Sec? Or are these informations just a fake?

When it is false, i will overhaul the descriptions, by removing the "Hisec" from the grids (only angel, blood and guristas)
Caterpil
Amanina Avada Corporation
#2 - 2013-02-03 16:31:09 UTC
DED 5 complexes can't be scanned down in hisec however they can still spawn in highsec as escalations from (faction) Den cosmic anomalies.

Mostly these escalations occur in lowsec, personally I've only ever had one of these (the Sansha one) spawn in a highsec system but I imagine that the chances are similar for all of the DED 5s.
Zoltan Lazar
#3 - 2013-02-03 17:32:34 UTC
He is talking specifically about scanned down ones.

It is theoretically possible, but incredibly rare. Rarer than the 1/10 and 2/10 spawns.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#4 - 2013-02-03 21:29:19 UTC
Zoltan Lazar wrote:
He is talking specifically about scanned down ones.

It is theoretically possible, but incredibly rare. Rarer than the 1/10 and 2/10 spawns.


Oh? I've never seen one. I've never talked to anyone who has seen one. Have you seen one?

Methinks the chart is bad. This question never came up before that ridiculous thing got posted by... someone.
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#5 - 2013-02-04 02:01:44 UTC
There is evidence that some sites may occur with extremely low frequency (look at wormhole B041... ~600 out of 1212 highsec systems, including several highsec-islands, 'simultaneously' scanned and 0 were found even though it is almost certainly a high sec wormhole). If a site is on the chart its because some (sadly) anonymous soul reported having scanned it down. That certainly doesn't make it true, but, by the opposite token, just because no one has seen one (recently) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Maybe another (truely) full scan of everywhere in high sec would be more conclusive.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-02-04 08:01:20 UTC
I've spend a fair amount of time scanning hi-sec, Guristas and Sansha space, and i have never seen a 5/10 DED site.

Maybe they could be found at some point, and later was removed from hi-sec, maybe they only spawn i special regions/systems like hi-sec gas sites. It could also be a error on the wiki site, the vigil sites are unrated 5/10 sites which would explain why the DED site also ended up on the site.

Could also be the not all factions has 5/10 hi-sec DED sites, i seem to remember the angle 5/10 was available in hi-sec before 3/10 was introduced for all factions. I don't know if that is true, or if they still are available.

Personally i don't believe they exist in Guristas or Sansha space, i don't know about Angel and Serpentis, but i suspect it's the same.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#7 - 2013-02-04 09:47:48 UTC
I too have never spotted a 5/10 in high sec... but since my records only have a little over 100 full scans (i.e. not just wormholes) in high sec.. let's talk wormholes a moment.

Since I started keeping records, I've been through well over 700 wormholes (I've probably scanned down and warped to two or three times that) across all classes of w-space, yet despite this,...

I've still never seen:
U574 c4 to c6 (only 25 in the game)
L477 c6 to c3 (only 17 in game)
B041 high to c6 (even after an event scanning half of high sec)
O128 probably high, low, and null to c4 (not many if any in high sec)
B449 low & null to high
S804 c1 to c6 (even after over 60 separate c1 scans, several of which span months)
S199 probably low and null to null (though I've certainly heard others speak of them)
S047 ? to high probably
B520 ? to high probably
N290 ? to low probably
C391 ? to low probably
C248 ? to null probably
K329 ? to null probably

It doesn't mean they don't exist (although the last six might well not): it just means they're quite rare. I wouldn't strike them from the charts just because a great many people have never seen them.

Now I know this could be seen as a bit of a strawman argument, but it's actually suppose to be a parallel example. Even if you've scanned through all 1212 high sec systems, what are the odds of you finding something there's only 1-5 of? Especially if they're highly valued moving targets that spend most of their lives trapped in the corner of a low traffic system collecting dust somewhere? It could easily be lower than 5/1212. Even at that rate, 167 truly random scans might only spot one 50% of the time, and I know most people's scanning is anything but random. Drop the odds down to 1 in 1212 and that figure goes up to 839 random scans for a 50% chance. I think it's safe to say that there's a chance something that rare might go unnoticed for a long time... and unreported for even longer... and unconfirmed for even longer than that.

I'd say, "let it ride", worst case scenario, throw a note in the chart that says it's *extremely* rare to non-existent. That whole chart is built off explorer reports, anyway; either way, it's accuracy is bound to be questionable. It's better to at least honor the possibility that someone knew what they were talking about when they added it.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-02-04 11:18:35 UTC  |  Edited by: dexington
Faulx wrote:
Even if you've scanned through all 1212 high sec systems, what are the odds of you finding something there's only 1-5 of?


With combat sites the chance is much higher then with wormhole, do to the difference in spawn mechanics. Once the combat site had been found and completed it would respawn in a new location, unlike wormholes that has very different spawn/despawn mechanics.

Lets say there exist 1 5/10 ded site for each pirate faction, and they are cleared and respawn each hour in average, this means 120 5/10 sites are going to spawn each day.

The sites can only spawn within in the area of operation for the giving pirate faction, which means you will always have one site within 242 systems, assuming each pirate factions has the same amount of space.

This gives every system 0.4% chance of having a 5/10 DED site...

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-02-04 12:45:46 UTC
These numbers are hypothetically depressing!
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-02-04 13:18:05 UTC
Faulx wrote:
I'd say, "let it ride", worst case scenario, throw a note in the chart that says it's *extremely* rare to non-existent. That whole chart is built off explorer reports, anyway; either way, it's accuracy is bound to be questionable. It's better to at least honor the possibility that someone knew what they were talking about when they added it.


If you take the Guristas Hallucinogen Supply Waypoint, the original version did not say it could spawn in hi-sec, and for a long time there was no mention of the site spawning in hi-sec. Then on 14 November 2012 Faulx updates the article with the comment "Tweaking page layout", and then it reads " ... It can be found via exploration by probing in Highsec and Lowsec systems."

The " ... It can be found via exploration by probing in Highsec and Lowsec systems." is copy and paste used in multiple articles, eg. Angel's Red Light District uses the exact same text.

I don't really see the point in "let it ride" if it means corrupting the wiki articles with false data added purely for cosmetic reasons.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-02-04 13:44:46 UTC
There is an older thread on the same subject: http://eve-search.com/thread/131656-1

The thread pretty much comes to the same conclusion, 5/10 don't spawn in hi-sec and the information on the wiki is not correct.

Batelle wrote:

5/10's that result from escalations are NOT cosmic signatures or anomalies. 5/10's that spawn as cosmic signatures do not happen in hisec.


Crawford McKinley wrote:
they used to spawn in hisec anyway as i have done 2 angel red light districts in ani constellation of metropolis ( both 0.5 systems) , altho that was early 2010 and things have changed since then.

i haven't done exploration in nearly a year now and those are the only 2 i ever found and no they weren't escalations. but if i have then surely others have as well


Crawford McKinley's comment probably explain why the 5/10 sites are listed in to wiki as spawning in hi-sec.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Gustav Mannfred
Summer of Mumuit
Remember Mumuit
#12 - 2013-02-04 14:21:19 UTC
I belive, the change on the plexes happened with Incursion 1.4 or Crucible 1.0

i'm REALY miss the old stuff. 

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#13 - 2013-02-04 17:09:58 UTC
dexington wrote:

If you take the Guristas Hallucinogen Supply Waypoint, the original version did not say it could spawn in hi-sec, and for a long time there was no mention of the site spawning in hi-sec. Then on 14 November 2012 Faulx updates the article with the comment "Tweaking page layout", and then it reads " ... It can be found via exploration by probing in Highsec and Lowsec systems."


Like Emperor Salazar said in that other article, quoting the DED-Listing

Emperor Salazar wrote:

Quote:
Please note: The above data has been compiled from explorer community reports on DED-Complexes and, particularly, from data shared by Elisa Fir. Nevertheless, there may be holes in the data, and it is a work in progress. If you have useful information or data that conflicts with anything here, please feel free to contribute.


Its a wiki dude.


Elisa's data did not include sources, that's why she's sited as the source. So if you want to know why its in there, take it up with her. I can say, that the vast majority of her data was correct.

dexington wrote:
There is an older thread on the same subject: http://eve-search.com/thread/131656-1

The thread pretty much comes to the same conclusion, 5/10 don't spawn in hi-sec and the information on the wiki is not correct.

Batelle wrote:

5/10's that result from escalations are NOT cosmic signatures or anomalies. 5/10's that spawn as cosmic signatures do not happen in hisec.



Crawford McKinley wrote:
they used to spawn in hisec anyway as i have done 2 angel red light districts in ani constellation of metropolis ( both 0.5 systems) , altho that was early 2010 and things have changed since then.

i haven't done exploration in nearly a year now and those are the only 2 i ever found and no they weren't escalations. but if i have then surely others have as well

Crawford McKinley's comment probably explain why the 5/10 sites are listed in to wiki as spawning in hi-sec.

Citation? If there was a change, and it was specifically documented, that would be a great reason for changing things. If there is no documentation, there remains a good reason to leave room for the possibility. Like the man said, he found some.

"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

@Gustav Mannfred
Again, Citation?
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#14 - 2013-02-04 17:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
mmm, i just watched at the chart, and it cannot be right.

i do ALOT of sig in low sansha space for more than a year, and the DED i encounter are nowhere close to the "spawn" chances reported.

i NEVER had a Sansha Acclimatization Facility (20% ??)

but i have at least 1 Sansha's Nation Neural Paralytic Facility / 2 weeks (5%) (and it is a bare minimum, often 1 / week sometime even more)

and Sansha's Nation Occupied Mining Colony occurs way less often than Sansha War Supply Complex

sorry but this chart is plain bullshit at least regarding sansha lowsec spanwrates

edit: My bad, i derped Ugh
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#15 - 2013-02-04 17:35:35 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
mmm, i just watched at the chart, and it cannot be right.

i do ALOT of sig in low sansha space for more than a year, and the DED i encounter are nowhere close to the "spawn" chances reported.

i NEVER had a Sansha Acclimatization Facility (20% ??)

but i have at least 1 Sansha's Nation Neural Paralytic Facility / 2 weeks (5%)

and Sansha's Nation Occupied Mining Colony occurs way less often than Sansha War Supply Complex

sorry but this chart is plain bullshit


seth, those arn't spawn chances those are Signature Strengths, its a measure of how easily/quickly a site can be scanned to 100% signal strength
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2013-02-04 19:32:15 UTC
Information on a user-based wiki is wrong?

Who knew?
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-02-04 23:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: dexington
Faulx wrote:
Citation? If there was a change, and it was specifically documented, that would be a great reason for changing things. If there is no documentation, there remains a good reason to leave room for the possibility. Like the man said, he found some.


Angel Refuge

Quote:
After destroying a ? this anomaly may escalate to an Angel's Red Light District (Please Confirm), DED rating 5/10, which may appear in both high sec or low sec. The probably for this escalation appears to be less than 1 in 45.

Note, this may be in error since Angel Refuge is a class 3 anomaly and Angel's Red Light District is a 5/10 DED-Complex. Anomalies of class X typically escalate to complexes of rating X/10.


You may or may not be able to get some 5/10 escalations in hi-sec, but that does not mean you can scan down 5/10 sites in hi-sec.

The incursion/crucible did not say exactly what was changed, but not one thread documents 5/10 site spawning in hi-sec anymore.

pinch yourself: more bosses, more modules, more loot, less lurking, less scraps, less pop-up bother

It's most likely that this thread is correct : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=372545#post372545

DED ratings 1-4 spawn in high sec, 4-6 spawn in lowsec, and 6-10 spawn in null.

The data is not 100% correct 3/10 sites can spawn i low-sec

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#18 - 2013-02-04 23:39:42 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
DED ratings 1-4 spawn in high sec, 4-6 spawn in lowsec, and 6-10 spawn in null.


While a good general guideline, this information is demonstrably incorrect. From my records: Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (a 3/10 DED-complex) can be found in low sec and high sec:

Low sec:
5:56 PM 5/14/2012
Vehan 0.4 (Aridia)
HXB-591 .23% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

7:17 PM 5/14/2012
Udianoor 0.4 (Aridia)
CUJ-016 .23% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

8:28 PM 5/14/2012
Isid 0.3 (Aridia)
WXM-188 .23% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

High sec:
4:25 PM 6/8/2012
Ylandoki 0.8 (Lonetrek)
LOA-101 4.68% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

6:51 PM 10/31/2012
Hasiari 0.8 (Derelik)
SON-800 .19% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

9:51 PM 11/5/2012
Aidart 0.6 (Verge Vendor)
HYJ-279 .23% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

dexington wrote:
The incursion/crucible did not say exactly what was changed, but not one thread documents 5/10 site spawning in hi-sec anymore.


"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#19 - 2013-02-04 23:51:07 UTC
Faulx wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
DED ratings 1-4 spawn in high sec, 4-6 spawn in lowsec, and 6-10 spawn in null.


While a good general guideline, this information is demonstrably incorrect. From my records: Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (a 3/10 DED-complex) can be found in low sec and high sec:

Low sec:
5:56 PM 5/14/2012
Vehan 0.4 (Aridia)
HXB-591 .23% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

7:17 PM 5/14/2012
Udianoor 0.4 (Aridia)
CUJ-016 .23% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

8:28 PM 5/14/2012
Isid 0.3 (Aridia)
WXM-188 .23% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

High sec:
4:25 PM 6/8/2012
Ylandoki 0.8 (Lonetrek)
LOA-101 4.68% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

6:51 PM 10/31/2012
Hasiari 0.8 (Derelik)
SON-800 .19% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

9:51 PM 11/5/2012
Aidart 0.6 (Verge Vendor)
HYJ-279 .23% Rogue Drone Asteroid Infestation (unk) 1/10

dexington wrote:
The incursion/crucible did not say exactly what was changed, but not one thread documents 5/10 site spawning in hi-sec anymore.


"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."


Why are you quoting me here? I certainly didn't say that (at least not in this thread).

At any rate, yes, drone 3/10s undeniably spawn in low sec on the same band as 4/10s (in low that is). I've seen it, you've seen it, we've all seen it, it's documented, and I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say it's not the only thing about drone DEDs that is either broken or at the very least not like pirate DEDs. If it would clarify things, let's talk specifically about pirate DEDs and leave rogue drones out of the equation entirely.
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#20 - 2013-02-05 01:10:03 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Why are you quoting me here?

dex quoted you without citation after linking the other thread What? He's trying to argue that scanable 5/10s don't spawn in high sec because no one's reported seeing them.

My argument is that it's certainly a possibility, but, before there is demonstrable proof or citation of such, it's premature to deny the possibility that the sites are simply rare and that the few who do find one might simply not be bothering to report it.

It's really nothing to worry about: your information merely demonstrated a little over generalization, suggesting that its probably as much a conglomeration of data as anything currently on the wiki. What you linked, what exists now... it's all built on player reports. Thus my argument not to discard reports without good cause.
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