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Fighters are pointless now.

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Wen Jaibao
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2011-10-11 07:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Wen Jaibao
If you were using fighters on your carrier before you were either

A) A despicable nullbear ratter.
or
B) Doing it wrong.

Now granted, I never liked that fighters sucked before this nerf anyways (the whole concept and implementation was horribly broken), but now there really IS absolutely no reason to ever have them in any carriers dronebay ever EVER. Goodbye, einherji, hello, thousands of regular drones.
AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-10-11 07:32:16 UTC  |  Edited by: AureoLion
so.
Orbit distance 1500, speed 280: Orbit circumference 9420, speed 280, a full revolution is done in 33.6 seconds.
in full orbit, 360°. there's 6.28 radians: That's 0.19 rad/sec.
The tracking on firbolgs is 0.1 rad/sec. It means, that, yes, firbolgs won't be able to hit battleships properly.
Let's see other fighters, though. I'm not a cap expert, so i'm assuming all the fighters do orbit at their optimals, like drones do.
Firbolgs: Seen, 0.19 angular velocity, 0.1 tracking
Dragonfly: 5000m orbit, 225 speed: 0.045 angular velocity, 0.0625 tracking
Einherji: 1000m orbit, 300 speed: 0.3 angular velocity, 0.125 tracking
Templar: 4500 orbit, 250 speed: 0.055 angular velocity, 0.075 tracking.

So, Gallente/Minmatar fighters orbit way too close to hit properly, while Caldari/Amarr fighters are perfectely fine.
That's indeed strange.
In case: Fitting a omnidirectional tracking link could improve things critically, especially if the optimal bonus actually highens the orbit distance, which i, however, heavily doubt - I seem to remember that Drone sharpshooting didn't, either.
And before someone pops out, drone navigation increases only MWD speed, not orbit speed.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2011-10-11 07:37:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadowsword
CaptainFalcon07 wrote:
A carrier with 10 Heavy drones does 634 DPS, you doing less than a battleship. A rorqual outdpses a carrier using only 5 drones.



Doing 634 DPS while having a cap-sized tank and doing some signifiant remoting all at the same time doesn't seem such a bad bargain to me. Besides, there's no rule preventing you from using fighters and a pair of target painters, is there?
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#44 - 2011-10-11 07:52:06 UTC
Shadowsword wrote:
CaptainFalcon07 wrote:
A carrier with 10 Heavy drones does 634 DPS, you doing less than a battleship. A rorqual outdpses a carrier using only 5 drones.



Doing 634 DPS while having a cap-sized tank and doing some signifiant remoting all at the same time doesn't seem such a bad bargain to me. Besides, there's no rule preventing you from using fighters and a pair of target painters, is there?



just the rule of stupidity.

OMG when can i get a pic here
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#45 - 2011-10-11 07:54:51 UTC
Theres the rule of using a pair of target painters and having you carrier not die and/or run cap dead.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Kitty McKitty
In Praise Of Shadows
#46 - 2011-10-11 07:56:23 UTC
but how can i do level 5's now, ccp owe me a level5mobile

♥ Haviing your portrait painted here helps INTAKI Disabled Children ♥
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#47 - 2011-10-11 08:01:27 UTC
Somehow, i no longer feel like an idiot because i was refusing, as a principle, to train for a carrier for the sole purpose of running sanctums. Now my BS will make the same amount of ISK, but ISK will be worth more and buy more.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-10-11 08:09:44 UTC
If you don't have room for a couple of painters in your support fleet, then something has gone badly wrong. Such as your support fleet just got blown up, and you're about to follow.

The entire blog is about stopping capitals from obsoleting subcaps, preventing them from applying too much damage too easily to them. So it's now absurd to say that fighters are supposed to be used against battleships - CCP has clearly just decided to change this. If you can't find room for two painters in your support fleet, then normal carriers should use sentries/heavies against subcaps and use fighters against capitals.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#49 - 2011-10-11 08:17:30 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
If you don't have room for a couple of painters in your support fleet, then something has gone badly wrong. Such as your support fleet just got blown up, and you're about to follow.

The entire blog is about stopping capitals from obsoleting subcaps, preventing them from applying too much damage too easily to them. So it's now absurd to say that fighters are supposed to be used against battleships - CCP has clearly just decided to change this. If you can't find room for two painters in your support fleet, then normal carriers should use sentries/heavies against subcaps and use fighters against capitals.



you wont field fighters ever ona carrier now. all they are is big haulers and logistic ships. where infact for the same isk, teh 10 guardians will do a better job of logi and not get hit by sc's. leaving carriers with what, hauling your crap? sweet just what i always wanted, a hauler

OMG when can i get a pic here
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#50 - 2011-10-11 08:27:38 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
If you don't have room for a couple of painters in your support fleet, then something has gone badly wrong. Such as your support fleet just got blown up, and you're about to follow.

The entire blog is about stopping capitals from obsoleting subcaps, preventing them from applying too much damage too easily to them. So it's now absurd to say that fighters are supposed to be used against battleships - CCP has clearly just decided to change this. If you can't find room for two painters in your support fleet, then normal carriers should use sentries/heavies against subcaps and use fighters against capitals.



you wont field fighters ever ona carrier now. all they are is big haulers and logistic ships. where infact for the same isk, teh 10 guardians will do a better job of logi and not get hit by sc's. leaving carriers with what, hauling your crap? sweet just what i always wanted, a hauler



You guys didn't even bothered using normal carriers in fleet so what do you care?

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#51 - 2011-10-11 08:31:40 UTC
often used carriers in fleets, often used dreads too. mind you this was back in 09 when they were worthwhile

OMG when can i get a pic here
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#52 - 2011-10-11 08:37:49 UTC
And hopefully, if CCP pulls this one right, we will have reason to start using them again. Like they were meant to be used.

Not as uber-ratting ships and ships-that-make-boring-wall-banging-go-faster

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#53 - 2011-10-11 08:41:43 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
And hopefully, if CCP pulls this one right, we will have reason to start using them again. Like they were meant to be used.

Not as uber-ratting ships and ships-that-make-boring-wall-banging-go-faster


not dreads. they cant hit anything that moves so wow we get to shoot pos's with them wooot. bring more titans.
carriers nah, buy 10 guardians that cant be dd'd and can sig tank anything a sc can chuck at them.

this hasnt buffed dreads enough so they are worthwhile and its hurt the now big hauler that is a carrier.

the titan blob just got bigger imo. now with added sub caps

OMG when can i get a pic here
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2011-10-11 09:01:37 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
you wont field fighters ever ona carrier now. all they are is big haulers and logistic ships. where infact for the same isk, teh 10 guardians will do a better job of logi and not get hit by sc's. leaving carriers with what, hauling your crap? sweet just what i always wanted, a hauler


10 Guardians will do a better job than one carrier, but last time I checked, one single account couldn't control 10 guardians. And 1 carrier + 9 other ships are better than 10 guardians. Any reasoning based on the assumption that you have unlimited manpower is just as flawed as the "minerals I mine are free" argument.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#55 - 2011-10-11 09:04:11 UTC
Shadowsword wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
you wont field fighters ever ona carrier now. all they are is big haulers and logistic ships. where infact for the same isk, teh 10 guardians will do a better job of logi and not get hit by sc's. leaving carriers with what, hauling your crap? sweet just what i always wanted, a hauler


10 Guardians will do a better job than one carrier, but last time I checked, one single account couldn't control 10 guardians. And 1 carrier + 9 other ships are better than 10 guardians. Any reasoning based on the assumption that you have unlimited manpower is just as flawed as the "minerals I mine are free" argument.


its an isk value assement, not man power.

there is no advantage to the carrier over the same isk value of guardians. instead of pushing for carriers in fleet, peopel will push for guardians. why risk something taht will get insta popped by a sc when you can wait 5 mins and get a few extra guardians

OMG when can i get a pic here
Evil Celeste
#56 - 2011-10-11 09:07:45 UTC
Confirming triage carrier can launch fighters.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#57 - 2011-10-11 09:09:34 UTC
If these changes means that there is now a reason to equip target painters on ships and use those bonuses, than this is a huge win. There is several underused ewar that could nicely dovetail some of these capital changes and bring more of a variety of ECM (and the ship variety as well) to the field. I can see remote tracking links as now being more significant for dreadnoughts, and target painters for carrier fleets. This is great stuff.

And I hear ya, I just finished training fighters myself. But if it makes two or three previously unused ewar ships valuable fleet assets again, than these nerfs are bringing something great to the table.

The goal should be teamwork. Solo PvP will always exist. The aim here should be to adjust the mechanics so ships can not do it all themselves. If each nerf brings out new qualities in a couple other ships, than its a net gain for overall fleet fun, and deepens strategic options. This also gives players more bang for their buck - it'll take longer for everyone to run out of new strategies and get restless again.

Win-win-win scenario. The only losers after these changes are the ones that rely on their capitals, and their capitals alone to be happy. Soon, EvE will test your ability to know every ship - not just that one you skipped over everything else for.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#58 - 2011-10-11 09:10:43 UTC
Evil Celeste wrote:
Confirming triage carrier can launch fighters.


Confirming rumor designed to incite conflict and tears / joy.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#59 - 2011-10-11 09:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoking Blunts
Evil Celeste wrote:
Confirming triage carrier can launch fighters.


no but currently, when you drop from triarge there is a point using your fighters v bs's. after this change yourll be dropping heavys/sentrys.

while i agree with a change to sc's. this hurts a ship class that is balanced and isnt imo in need of a nerf.
these chnages also wont ahve teh effect of getting more dreads on the field. something i really wanted to see.

tbh i think this nerf to fighters is directed at rating carriers and there isk income. which isnt a reason to screw a whole ship class

OMG when can i get a pic here
Evil Celeste
#60 - 2011-10-11 09:25:28 UTC
No, triage just carrier just takes another cycle if reps are needed.

If they are not, its pretty much over - won or lost - and difference between 600 dps of sentrys and 1000 dps of fighters means absolutely nothing. Especially in fight, where there is need for triage carrier reps - 10k and up damage tanked.