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Patriotism, The Government, The Individual

Author
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-02-03 01:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Simon Louvaki wrote:


I'm actually attempting to clarify the lines not blur them, because you see you are not either or citizen or soldier


I was born in a Gallente Prime and I'm a Major General for the Federal Defense Union in active service. Wouldn't that make me a citizen of the Federation and a soldier?

Quote:
The goal, in my humble opinion, should not be to separate the two but to compromise their responsibilities because sooner or later they will overlap and bring a conflict of priorities. There can be no single definition of 'citizen' do to the various beliefs of what it means to be one. The Caldari State adopted a militaristic approach to society because it was necessary for survival, and thus a citizens responsibility is quite similar to a soldiers; everyone had to do their part, because without it our people would not be here today. If we had adopted the idea that our duty was solely to our family and our own we would not have survived the Dark Age, no Caldari would debate that.


That comes down to personal and social differences. In the Federation such roles are well defined and there's no issue for confusion. One would not be less of a citizen for not being a soldier but one could become a citizen for serving the Federation as a soldier. Many immigrants choose this path.

Quote:
So my question stands in regards to your ideology. Where does the responsibility of the soldier end and the citizen begin and vice versa? and what happens when the people under your command rise up when they deem you are going against the duty of a soldier, as citizens you are meant to protect?


Someone from the Federal Navy would give you a different opinion than mine as I'm a capsuleer and at the FDU we handle things differently. I'm in absolute control of my ship and there's no dissenters, there's not an officer to conveniently replace me, the ship wouldn't even function without me.

I probably don't need to remind you that capsuleer ships require much less crew than normal so a ship without a capsuleer is pretty much useless because there would not be enough to keep the ship running propperly and would be an easy target out in open space. Dissenters would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Capsuleer ship crews are well aware of the risks and what it means to serve our ships.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-02-03 01:52:00 UTC
Emile Belfleur wrote:
Mekhana wrote:
A very long time ago we were not even a democracy, we were a monarchy. Obviously the change to democracy was the next obvious evolutionary step for our society and nobody can disagree with that.

This was not so much an evolutionary step for our society as an unraveling of it, if you ask me. A cultural disaster brought about through the rantings of populist demagogues and the machinations of the nouveau riche, allowed to happen by the aristocracy's benevolent but sadly misplaced leniency. It is why we now, regrettably, live in a cluster where the term "Gallente" is all but synonomous with "Whatever you damn well please".


Better luck next time then. There's still traces of monarchy and royalty in certain planets, so it's not the absolutist spirit died. It's still there somewhere.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#43 - 2013-02-03 02:04:50 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Better luck next time then. There's still traces of monarchy and royalty in certain planets, so it's not the absolutist spirit died. It's still there somewhere.

There are places where history and heritage are still valued, yes, like my native home in Gererique. It is by far the exception, though, not the rule.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-02-03 02:06:14 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
It saddens and irritates me to see such derision towards humanity. You call people "sheep," as if it were an ignoble animal, and trumpet individuality and personal struggle as if it were a torch being carried to light the darkness.


It appears we're not speaking the same language here. I said that a true patriot is not a sheep, because a true patriot would act according to his ideals and beliefs and would not sit iddly. Even a common man can become a patriot when his loved ones and friends are at risk and he learns the importance of protecting the ones he loves. Usually that's how the story goes.

People aren't born or stay this way, it's a sudden and temporary transformation. It's also something every soul should aspire to at least once.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-02-03 02:07:46 UTC
Emile Belfleur wrote:
Mekhana wrote:
Better luck next time then. There's still traces of monarchy and royalty in certain planets, so it's not the absolutist spirit died. It's still there somewhere.

There are places where history and heritage are still valued, yes, like my native home in Gererique. It is by far the exception, though, not the rule.


I'm actually enthralled by monarchic societies in the Federation. Perhaps I'll pay Gererique a visit someday.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#46 - 2013-02-03 02:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Mekhana wrote:

I was born in a Gallente Prime and I'm a Major General for the Federal Defense Union in active service. Wouldn't that make me a citizen of the Federation and a soldier?


I should have been more clear in my wording. I was stating that one is not simple a soldier or a citizen, but the two are often synonomis. You gave two definitions of responsibility; one for the citizen and one for the soldier. I was saying that I disagree with that method of thinking because the two often over lap.

Mekhana wrote:

That comes down to personal and social differences. In the Federation such roles are well defined and there's no issue for confusion. One would not be less of a citizen for not being a soldier but one could become a citizen for serving the Federation as a soldier. Many immigrants choose this path.


It appeared to me that you were speaking in general terms, not specific in regards to the Federation alone, its a misunderstanding on my behalf if you were limiting your original post specifically to the Federation.

Mekhana wrote:

Someone from the Federal Navy would give you a different opinion than mine as I'm a capsuleer and at the FDU we handle things differently. I'm in absolute control of my ship and there's no dissenters, there's not an officer to conveniently replace me, the ship wouldn't even function without me.

I probably don't need to remind you that capsuleer ships require much less crew than normal so a ship without a capsuleer is pretty much useless because there would not be enough to keep the ship running propperly and would be an easy target out in open space. Dissenters would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Capsuleer ship crews are well aware of the risks and what it means to serve our ships.


Capsuleer vessels starting at least at Battlecrusiers can be operated without the pilot. Not every capsuleer vessel is entirely built to them, and a skilled crew can at least jurry rig a ship into dock. If your flying a ship smaller than that (haven't tested a cruiser) then you would be correct.

I'm afraid I won't be able to respond to this without coming off somewhat aggressive given your reaction to some of my more tame posts, but I'll try to paraphrase. This response seems to imply to me in the end your not willing to practice what you preach when it comes down to the line, preferring to rule your own kingdom (ship) as you see fit while dictating to the rest of the cluster what they should do. I mean no offense, but this is just the rendering I'm getting.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-02-03 02:17:53 UTC
Hardly. And I'm already tired of arguing with you. At the same time I just think you are way too stubborn and are way too defensive.

So I'll just drop the argument now as we'll clearly not going to be getting anywhere with this.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#48 - 2013-02-03 02:31:48 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Hardly. And I'm already tired of arguing with you. At the same time I just think you are way too stubborn and are way too defensive.

So I'll just drop the argument now as we'll clearly not going to be getting anywhere with this.


*sigh*

Mrs. Mekhana, there is no argument to end and I was simply attempting to further the conversation. If you would like me to stop responding all you have to do is ask and I will happily comply. I'm a bit distressed though at the lengths you going through to paint me in such a negative light.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

von Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2013-02-03 02:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: von Khan
Debate often suffers more by the heat of its defenders than from the arguments of its opposers. Ms. Mekhana your crew is voting to self destroy.

von Khan

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-02-03 02:40:24 UTC
Perhaps I'm just expecting too much out of IGS but would be nice to have someplace people can go to once in a while and speak their opinions and share their experiences with honesty without worrying about other people.

I actually made this thread as well concealed criticism to the Federation and yet I still manage to step on the toes of people. Certain individuals must have really big toes or people must actually enjoy their toes being stepped on.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-02-03 02:42:46 UTC
von Khan wrote:
Debate often suffers more by the heat of its defenders than from the arguments of its opposers. Ms. Mekhana your crew is voting to self destroy.


My crew will do what they are told, as they always have.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

von Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-02-03 02:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: von Khan
As it reads, seems your stepping on your own toes

von Khan

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-02-03 02:45:16 UTC
Just keep bombarding me with your ignorance all night. I'll still be here.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#54 - 2013-02-03 02:47:02 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
I'm actually enthralled by monarchic societies in the Federation. Perhaps I'll pay Gererique a visit someday.

It's not monarchic in a formal sense - the planetary and regional governors on all of the populated planets are still elected. Still, a system is in place to deter opportunistic rogues who would try to worm their way into those positions in place of more eligible candidates. To date, the vast majority of office holders, including every planetary governor, have been people who can trace clear and largely undiluted lines of ancestry back to Garoun royalty or high nobility. Some of them (soon to include my father) still hold Garoun titles passed down through the generations - even though no formal political power is directly attached to those titles anymore.

It's not monarchy per se, but the aristocratic tradition lives on.
von Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2013-02-03 03:08:57 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Just keep bombarding me with your ignorance all night. I'll still be here.


Ms. Mekhana, I apologise for my aggressive approach, I welcome your commentaries as a opportunity to learn from them in one way ore another. However as you speak your mind in this public forum its naive to expect others will not. I will offer you this piece of advise, listen to others the same as you wish others listen to you.

von Khan

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-02-03 03:20:58 UTC
Very well then.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#57 - 2013-02-03 03:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Scherezad
I apologize ma'am. We are indeed speaking the same language, but I did not craft my point well. Let me try again, in the frame of your last statement. I apologize for my bluntness; I have no recourse, as my skills of language fail me.

There lives in your words a denigration of the common person, Pilot Mekhana - you can see it most clearly in your words:

Mekhana wrote:
Even a common man can become a patriot...


You speak as if a "patriot", one who "acts on their ideals and does not sit idly," is better than a "sheep", the common man. This is the point I disagree with. That "Common man," that "sheep" who does not raise dissent, is as noble as the patriot with all of their stirring speeches.

That common man is silent, for he loves his family and wishes them protection, and so he guards them by guarding his tongue when his pride might guide him otherwise.

That common man is still, for he loves his people, and will not raise his hand against them - even if he disagrees with them - for he knows humility and realizes that he may not be right.

That common man, when he does speak, and when he stirs to action, acts with his fellows, together, for he loves them, and they him. He does not idolize these moments when he must be stirred, for they risk his heart. May he never be forced to do so, as you suggest all should. May instead his years be long, his pantry full, his children many, and his home bright. This is his disposition and that which he desires, may he receive it in full measure.

You glorify conflict and struggle, and condescend towards those you call "sheep", Pilot Mekhana. This is the point of contention I have.

Also, as a postscript, I would like to suggest an addendum to your statement.

A true patriot acts on their ideals and does not sit idly, so long as those ideals align with the ideals of the nation in which they live. Elsewise the individual is not a patriot, they are a traitor.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#58 - 2013-02-03 03:35:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
I never understood the term 'sheep' in Mrs. Mekhana's post to mean your average citizen, but the fanatics who blindly follow what their national leadership does and tells them for the simple fact that they are who they are.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Marcus Horalen
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-02-03 04:24:09 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
I never understood the term 'sheep' in Mrs. Mekhana's post to mean your average citizen, but the fanatics who blindly follow what their national leadership does and tells them for the simple fact that they are who they are.

In this we are agreed, Mr. Louvaki.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-02-03 06:01:11 UTC
I agree with captain Scherezad's words completely. And they are not incompatible with your view on what sheep means here, which I hold to be a right interpretation of the original message, captain Louvaki.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander