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Clone prices
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Corey Fumimasa

CFM Salvage

Likes received: 1,047

#81 - 2013-02-13 13:55:05 UTC

As I look at the issue of clone cost and talk to people around New Eden things become more clear. High clone prices are a limiting factor to high SP characters. If removed or mitigated these characters will become more powerful.

Many players in Eve enjoy the whole game; resource development, income creation, PvE and PvP. These different aspects of Eve compliment one another in that they amplify the sense of achievement and they allow different player types to effectively compete with one another. Long term strategies have as good a payoff as short term ones and there are many ways to put your opponent at a disadvantage.

I think much of the support for lowering clone costs comes from players really enjoy the pewpew side of Eve. And would like to have more resources available to commit to those activities. This population is significant, however Eve is not a game solely about pewpew.

Some of the support comes from players who are looking to have a major limitation removed from their characters so that they will be free to attack players who pursued a more diversified character development plan. I.E. the guy who put all his S.P. into one char is unhappy with his disadvantage vs someone who took the time to develop both a combat character and a general purpose character.

A third group that seems to be supporting this is involved in null sec sovereignty warfare; I think the Goons are on uneven footing with Test over an extended campaign just based on clone costs. The goon clones will be much more expensive than Tests. I would be surprised if this by itself could win that war, but it is a cost that must be accounted for.

And so the supporters of this plan all have something to gain in the long term conflict of ISK. This gain will give them advantage over their competitors, the players who have a more wholistic approach to Eve.

If players want to support the idea of reducing clone costs that’s great, that is what the forums are for. But without considering the disadvantage that it will create for players on the other side of the coin it is nothing more than meta-gaming for self advantage.

seth Hendar

I love you miners

Likes received: 521

#82 - 2013-02-13 15:10:40 UTC

Corey Fumimasa wrote:

any change will always be made at the advantage of one categry, at the disadvantage of another one.

what i think, is that it limits pvp, and prevent, as you described pretty well, some large scale conflicts.

but the thing is that, imao, those conflicts are necessary for the whole EVE Health!

looking at the current situation, we have powerblocks, refusing to engage, and holding a monoply on a ressource, driving the prices up for the whole player base. this is not good.

some want's the clone cost removed, the others respond that this add to the pain of the loss.

i think both are right.

for me, i don't care loosing a ship, being it a rifter or a machariel, in pvp, because i choosed to fight with it.
same goes for my implants set.

but not my pod, i don't have the choice to lower it's cost, it's fixed and tied to how long i played eve.
so as a commited customer, i get rewarded by a BIGGER punishment, it is unfair

what i would propose, is a pod insurance

the insurance would cover a chunk of the clone cost, with several levels (kinda like the current ship insurance)

the scale could be from 20 to 80% refund of the clone cost, based on the insurance level (insurance cost / duration) to be defined.

the insurance calculus shall not take any implant in count, and would be based on the pilot SP only, not on the destroyed clone, to prevent abuse (like using and insuring a 200M sp clone when you have 50M sp)

to avoid any abuse using a clone that can hold less SP than you have (for a potential case where loosing SP vs the isk income could appear interesting), loosing a non upgraded clone associated SP loss would be reviewed, and the result should be that 50% of the difference SP is lost, making such practice deterent.

the needed isk sink could appear reduced, right, but by promoting pvp again, you would enlarge the remaining sinks, in the form of the new insurance, the lost implants (remember the pod insurance doesn't care about em), and the ships destroyed, so at worst,it would balance itself, but the way i see it, more isk would be removed than currently.

Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 130
Pesadel0 Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 130	#83 - 2013-02-27 10:02:01 UTC 1 Can we please know if this is getting looked into devs please?

Azn Empire 21,366
Mag's Azn Empire Likes received: 21,366	#84 - 2013-02-27 10:07:02 UTC 1 Pesadel0 wrote: Can we please know if this is getting looked into devs please? They have said they will, but we know not when. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.


Pesadel0 Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 130	#85 - 2013-02-27 10:21:35 UTC 1 Mag's wrote: Pesadel0 wrote: Can we please know if this is getting looked into devs please? They have said they will, but we know not when. Ohh oki then , ;( maybe when the shield slaves come in then :)

Zella Polaris

Pitchfork Uprising Holdings

Likes received: 122

#86 - 2013-02-27 10:35:29 UTC | Edited by: Zella Polaris

Could make it skill based. Example:

Clone Processing Efficiency: Reduces clone cost by 15% per level.

For those on a budget, or who PVP often, they would likely train it up to level 5. For those with billions of ISK, they may find their SP better used elsewhere as they can eat the cost. For those sitting in a station with an indy character, they might not train for it, so it serves them right when they get popped and lose a boatloat.

Risk versus reward.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, new players wouldn't need this skill for quite some time. Some may never train it.

Pitchfork Militia, part of Catastrophic Uprising, is recruiting. 0.0 SOV, emphasis on PvP, NBSI

Ministry of War Amarr Empire 205
Sphit Ker Ministry of War Amarr Empire Likes received: 205	#87 - 2013-02-27 19:57:42 UTC 1 I propose to replace clone grade skillpoint retention for implant slots. Highest grade have 10 slots. Default grade could have one or two i suppose. It knows what you think.

Yolo

Unknown Nation

Likes received: 164

#88 - 2013-02-28 05:02:06 UTC

Weasel Leblanc wrote:

Yolo wrote:

Apostrof Ahashion wrote:

Sure, take away one of the biggest ISK sinks from the game, not like that would make inflation worse or **** up the economy completely.

You are aware that increased amount of combat and death which means in the end, a bigger Isk sink then people staying away from PvP when they can.

Okay, just to clarify - are you assuming that clone costs will be lowered, but not eliminated? And if so, are you also assuming that a lower perceived cost will make people notably more likely to go PvP in weaker ships and in riskier places, leading to a net increase in ISK sunk by poddings?

If you answered "no" to either of those questions, you lack understanding of the concept of ISK sinks.

If you answered "yes" to both, I'll just go shut up for now.

Current clone prices encourages old pilots to as in this thread recommended, use alts to pvp.
The alts pay **** nothing for pods because in the lower tier you can protect 20-30 sp per Isk invested.

With lower clone prices, older players would engage in combat, in less expensive ships, and die one way or another.
More death increases the chance of getting poded, which in turn after a few kills will add upp to the same amount of Isk sinked by the clone cost.

To this comes also the usage of faction items, most of which are bought from agens, which in turn are sold by NPC's from LP's and Isk. This would also increase the Isk sink factor in the game.

If CCP would then change or scrap insurance system, so a pilot whom is suspect or criminal gets no insurance, and insurance payout is multiplied by the security rating eg; 1.0 = 100%, 0,5 = 50%, 0,0 = 0% payout.

Sol Weinstein wrote:

Still bitching about this, huh? Once again, your "employees" don't "work" for your money enough already?

Thank you.

I have no idea what your problem is.
Try finding someone to talk to, because I'll just not reply to your posts again.

- since 2003, bitches

Imperial Mechanics 228
Azrael Dinn Imperial Mechanics Likes received: 228	#89 - 2013-02-28 06:55:07 UTC 2 Sphit Ker wrote: I propose to replace clone grade skillpoint retention for implant slots. Highest grade have 10 slots. Default grade could have one or two i suppose. Now thats just silly... hows the clone in any way physicaly different than the better one? After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

1,718
Anthar Thebess Likes received: 1,718	#90 - 2013-02-28 10:14:08 UTC 1 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=209444 Idea - how to change this Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!

Mag's

Azn Empire

Likes received: 21,366

#91 - 2013-02-28 12:26:03 UTC

Azrael Dinn wrote:

Sphit Ker wrote:

I propose to replace clone grade skillpoint retention for implant slots. Highest grade have 10 slots. Default grade could have one or two i suppose.

Now thats just silly... hows the clone in any way physicaly different than the better one?

It's not physical difference, that worries me about that idea. It's the cost aspect for new players. Making new players pay more, would be a hypocritical move IMHO.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Azrael Dinn

Imperial Mechanics

Likes received: 228

#92 - 2013-02-28 13:47:11 UTC

Mag's wrote:

Azrael Dinn wrote:

Sphit Ker wrote:

I propose to replace clone grade skillpoint retention for implant slots. Highest grade have 10 slots. Default grade could have one or two i suppose.

Now thats just silly... hows the clone in any way physicaly different than the better one?

It's not physical difference, that worries me about that idea. It's the cost aspect for new players. Making new players pay more, would be a hypocritical move IMHO.

Well Zella Polaris proposed a skill that would allow you to reduce the cost of the clone. Would that be any good? New players could train it also making their clones even cheaper.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Mag's

Azn Empire

Likes received: 21,366

#93 - 2013-02-28 13:56:04 UTC | Edited by: Mag's

Azrael Dinn wrote:

Mag's wrote:

Azrael Dinn wrote:

Sphit Ker wrote:

I propose to replace clone grade skillpoint retention for implant slots. Highest grade have 10 slots. Default grade could have one or two i suppose.

Now thats just silly... hows the clone in any way physicaly different than the better one?

It's not physical difference, that worries me about that idea. It's the cost aspect for new players. Making new players pay more, would be a hypocritical move IMHO.

Well Zella Polaris proposed a skill that would allow you to reduce the cost of the clone. Would that be any good? New players could train it also making their clones even cheaper.

It could be, but then we have the must have skill factor to deal with. Lol

The issue I see with this, is in regards to balance and choice. Balance in the price against small ships. Choice in the fact that I can decide to risk whichever ship, module and ammo I like, but have no choice with the clone.

But as a low sec dweller, pod loss is far and very few between. I think I've lost 1 pod in 4 years and that was because I couldn't be bothered to warp out. But I can see the issue this has for long term players in null, that want to head out in frig gangs now and again.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what CCP has to offer.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Victor Bastion

Danger Management

Likes received: 30

#94 - 2013-02-28 13:59:07 UTC

Sura Sadiva wrote:

The gameplay added by clones upgrade is to add "cost" to the death penalities. What makes EVE harsh as we like is not simply the open PVP but the risks involving and the costs.

Reducing clones upgrades reduce the harshness.

If lowered for medical clones then should be balaanced properly by increased implants costs and jump clones costs.

How about just making the size of a personal hanger much smaller and if you want a larger hanger to store more stuff you have to pay for it. The older the character the more crap he's got to store so he has to pay for a larger hanger or he has to spread his stuff out across multiple bases. (which most of us end up with anyway but that's beside the point.)

This could be extended to Null Sec Outposts and give a way for the Null Alliances to effectively tax their members as they keep saying they want to do.

Still an ISK Sink that will effect older players far more then newer ones.


Victor Bastion Danger Management Likes received: 30	#95 - 2013-02-28 14:14:54 UTC 2 Or how about letting us turn in our collection frozen corpses to the Medical Centers for credit? Kinda like a refund like on soda bottles. :)


Zella Polaris Pitchfork Uprising Holdings Likes received: 122	#96 - 2013-02-28 19:33:27 UTC 2 Victor Bastion wrote: Or how about letting us turn in our collection frozen corpses to the Medical Centers for credit? Kinda like a refund like on soda bottles. :) This... this... ...Actually is a hilarious idea Pitchfork Militia, part of Catastrophic Uprising, is recruiting. 0.0 SOV, emphasis on PvP, NBSI

Azrael Dinn

Imperial Mechanics

Likes received: 228

#97 - 2013-03-01 06:25:58 UTC | Edited by: Azrael Dinn

Mag's wrote:

Azrael Dinn wrote:

Mag's wrote:

Azrael Dinn wrote:

Sphit Ker wrote:

.....

....

It could be, but then we have the must have skill factor to deal with. Lol

Well if it's a rank 1 or 2 skill does it then realy matter? And well imo it you realy don't even need to train it if you don't want to. Sure it makes things cheaper for you but then again if you loose 1 pod a year then you realy don't need it. So it's more like a choice that "this is something I will need and I will train it" or "meh I will train more gunho' skills and pay more" or something like that. The player is eventualy the one deciding does he want to train it. And again rank 1 or 2. plus you don't need to train everything to lvl5 always Twisted

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Pesadel0

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 130

#98 - 2013-03-03 20:19:02 UTC

Quote:

Well i wanted to train my main in minmatar to be an excellent minmatar pilot , and i'am still training skills to be an excellent minmatar pilote, and the option is really train the ships you like and pay allot of cash for a pod that is more valuble than a frig , that seems a poor mechanic to me.