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Clone prices
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#61 - 2013-02-12 13:32:04 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:

It seems that your idea of pennies and mine are VERY different.

I'm about to hit the point where my clones are going to start costing me 30M. This would take me about 5 hours of solid game play to make, using 3 accounts to do it. Considering that I pretty much only play for about 1 or 2 hours a week, sometimes I have entire weekends that I play for, but mostly a casual player. So you're saying that a nearly a month of game play is pennies??????

And I've played my toons since I created them, I have not bought them. High SP and Hence High ISK cost for clones is what is killing small ship gang PvP.(would love to go on that Frigate roam through Null/LS with the boys, however then I will have to grind ISK for a month to just to re-coop the loss/s)

As for the idiots saying just create a low SP alt for PvP, get with it, the entire reason this is required in the first place is because of the idiotically high Clone Costs.

Fix the Clones costs and then we can all just PvP in whatever ship we want on our MAINS.


So you are not good at making ISK in game and PvP is too expensive for you. And CCP should make combat and loss more affordable. Hell, lets just make ships free to, and implants. People want to PvP in a dangerous environment where loss matters but they don't want to risk anything to do it. Those two things are not compatible.

I already pay for the PvP losses through the loss of the Ships/Modules/Implants and what I fly should be the deciding factor of the costs, not how long that I've played the game. Which is basically what clone costs are currently. Motto of PvP, never fly what you can't afford to loose, at the moment my clone is the problem, not the ships/modules/implants

Corey Fumimasa wrote:

In order for Eve combat to be meaningful it must have risk. If you want to go on a few roams and not grind ISK for a month there is an answer, just buy/sell a PLEX and use that ISK only for clones. At 30 million per clone 20$ US will get you 16 clones. That's a little bit more than the micro transactions for DUST players, and I think a fair trade for several nights of stress free combat if that is what your after.

So you think that I should cough up real world cash just to buy clones? you're basically promoting RMT. Not all of us have the liquid income in RL to spend on a game.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#62 - 2013-02-12 13:33:50 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Getting podded needs to hurt, any nerfing on this front is an easy button in disguise. If you you don't like bubbles go to lowsec to PvP.



Stop reading here, you should get out of high sec Elite pvp and go more often pvp in low sec to learn bbles in low sec DON'T EXIST, you have no clue about real clone costs for players loosing pods frequently in null sec fights but dare to give lessons about harshness of Eve from your high sec safety bubble.

Give us a break.


I understand this issue is meaningful for you, but please try to stay on point and constructive. The conversation we are having is not going to decide the fate of clone prices. It is just conversation about the game.

I live in lowsec, I mine there in a covetor and do my PI. I use that ISK to fund my explorations into null and my roams, wherever they may occur.

You misinterpreted my statement, I was not saying that "you think null is bad, go to lowsec." I was saying that there are no bubbles in lowsec and so it is a lot easier to get your pod out. So if risk to your pod is a limiting factor then you have the option to go and fight in lowsec, where the pod is at less risk.
Yolo
Unknown Nation
#63 - 2013-02-12 13:42:25 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Sure, take away one of the biggest ISK sinks from the game, not like that would make inflation worse or **** up the economy completely.

You are aware that increased amount of combat and death which means in the end, a bigger Isk sink then people staying away from PvP when they can.

- since 2003, bitches
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#64 - 2013-02-12 13:49:54 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:

I already pay for the PvP losses through the loss of the Ships/Modules/Implants and what I fly should be the deciding factor of the costs, not how long that I've played the game. Which is basically what clone costs are currently. Motto of PvP, never fly what you can't afford to loose, at the moment my clone is the problem, not the ships/modules/implants


So you think that I should cough up real world cash just to buy clones? you're basically promoting RMT. Not all of us have the liquid income in RL to spend on a game.



Buying PLEX is just an option that I wanted to mention, I don't like the practice myself but it seems to be the way that online gaming is going.

In regards to the price of combat, it has a price. You saw the price of your clones going up and yet you continued to train them, that is a choice you made, a strategy that you chose to implement. It has advantages and limitations in game, I'm sorry that you don't like some of the limitations, but they are what define the game space, without them the whole thing becomes meaningless.

And I understand that reducing clone prices by half or whatever will not ruin the challenge or destroy the game. But it is another proverbial straw on the camel. One of many moves in the past few years that make the game easier, and every one of them also make it less interesting and remove potential and excitement.

If anything Eve should be more dangerous; that is how to keep the experience fresh and exciting. Not this risk free playground space ship battle pew pew. Make every undock into an adventure with the potential for loss or gain.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#65 - 2013-02-12 13:55:00 UTC
Yolo wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Sure, take away one of the biggest ISK sinks from the game, not like that would make inflation worse or **** up the economy completely.

You are aware that increased amount of combat and death which means in the end, a bigger Isk sink then people staying away from PvP when they can.


Sinks remove ISK from the game and help to even out "faucets" that put ISK into the game. When you buy something from an NPC vendor that ISK is removed from the game, right now clones are probably one of the biggest sinks. If you buy a ship and equipment from another player the ISK is still in game , its just that someone else has it. This leads to mudflation, which can be very problematic for in game economies.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#66 - 2013-02-12 14:15:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Yolo wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Sure, take away one of the biggest ISK sinks from the game, not like that would make inflation worse or **** up the economy completely.

You are aware that increased amount of combat and death which means in the end, a bigger Isk sink then people staying away from PvP when they can.


Sinks remove ISK from the game and help to even out "faucets" that put ISK into the game. When you buy something from an NPC vendor that ISK is removed from the game, right now clones are probably one of the biggest sinks. If you buy a ship and equipment from another player the ISK is still in game , its just that someone else has it. This leads to mudflation, which can be very problematic for in game economies.
I think Yolo was thinking more along the lines of things going pop. The more PvP, the more destruction kind of thing. Sure insurance can cover the hull, but not the fittings etc.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever actually insured a frig. Lol

As far as risk is concerned, I'm all for it. I choose the ship I risk, the fittings, the implants, even the ammo and whatever else there may be in the hold. The one thing that I have no choice over, is the clone cost. I simply would like to have more choices, in the clone department.

If this means higher cost for certain ones, then so be it. As long as there are options for "cheap as chips" ones too. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#67 - 2013-02-12 14:26:57 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Yolo wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Sure, take away one of the biggest ISK sinks from the game, not like that would make inflation worse or **** up the economy completely.

You are aware that increased amount of combat and death which means in the end, a bigger Isk sink then people staying away from PvP when they can.


Sinks remove ISK from the game and help to even out "faucets" that put ISK into the game. When you buy something from an NPC vendor that ISK is removed from the game, right now clones are probably one of the biggest sinks. If you buy a ship and equipment from another player the ISK is still in game , its just that someone else has it. This leads to mudflation, which can be very problematic for in game economies.


IIRC most of the Implants still come predominantly from NPCs (Either through NPC Seeds direct to the Market or through LP Stores), Of course there are still allot that come through Exploration, NPC drops and Mission Rewards.
Perhaps the alternative means need to be reduced and more put through the LP Stores(Including the Pirate Faction LP Stores) this way you move allot of the ISK sync from Clone Costs onto Implant Costs, which we can then choose to fit.

Back to the only Fly what you can afford motto, if you can afford it, fit implants, if you can't you miss out on their bonuses. At least then the control of our own risks comes back to what we choose to fly/fit and not on some arbitrary cost based on how long we've played, currently dedicated by clone cost.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#68 - 2013-02-12 14:30:36 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:

I'm about to hit the point where my clones are going to start costing me 30M. This would take me about 5 hours of solid game play to make, using 3 accounts to do it. Considering that I pretty much only play for about 1 or 2 hours a week, sometimes I have entire weekends that I play for, but mostly a casual player. So you're saying that a nearly a month of game play is pennies??????



5 hours of solid gameplay with 3 accounts to earn only 30 milions?! it's an average of 2.000.000/hour per character; what are you doing, level 2 missions?

60 milions is an average income for 2 low-sec radar sites; my explorer alt (20M sp) can do it in solo in 40 minutes (also considering scanning times and all). And not like I'm good at it, I'm sure "professional" explorer can do much better. And if you operate in null (that's the only place where there's an evaluable chance to get podded) the incomes are far higher. Damn, even only the passive income from PI, how much is in null? I'd say in low is 2-300 milions/monthly per char. Doing nothing.

PvP have to matter, have to hurt. If doesn't is not PvP and is not EvE. Costs today are MUCH less than in the past, is already next to trivial.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#69 - 2013-02-12 14:34:03 UTC
Mag's wrote:

As far as risk is concerned, I'm all for it. I choose the ship I risk, the fittings, the implants, even the ammo and whatever else there may be in the hold. The one thing that I have no choice over, is the clone cost. I simply would like to have more choices, in the clone department.


yes, and this is why I say reducing medical clone costs based on the ship skill used and similar concepts is a stealth way to increase the "consensual" component.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#70 - 2013-02-12 14:37:21 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Mag's wrote:

As far as risk is concerned, I'm all for it. I choose the ship I risk, the fittings, the implants, even the ammo and whatever else there may be in the hold. The one thing that I have no choice over, is the clone cost. I simply would like to have more choices, in the clone department.


yes, and this is why I say reducing medical clone costs based on the ship skill used and similar concepts is a stealth way to increase the "consensual" component.


Yea that could work. I guess we'll have to see what CCP have in mind.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#71 - 2013-02-12 14:51:15 UTC
Mag's wrote:

As far as risk is concerned, I'm all for it. I choose the ship I risk, the fittings, the implants, even the ammo and whatever else there may be in the hold. The one thing that I have no choice over, is the clone cost. I simply would like to have more choices, in the clone department.

If this means higher cost for certain ones, then so be it. As long as there are options for "cheap as chips" ones too. Big smile


That's actually a great idea. Create different types of clones, they would all protect SP, but maybe a cheaper line that cannot incorporate implants or maybe clones that will only last a certain amount of time before they must be upgraded, or perhaps "escrow clones" that you have to put a big wager on, if someone pops one then they get the ISK.

I think those kind of options would really help to mitigate the clone cost without dampening risk across the board. There is still the factor of increasing the real power of high SP characters while leaving low SP characters further behind.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#72 - 2013-02-12 14:52:34 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:

It seems that your idea of pennies and mine are VERY different.

I'm about to hit the point where my clones are going to start costing me 30M. This would take me about 5 hours of solid game play to make, using 3 accounts to do it. Considering that I pretty much only play for about 1 or 2 hours a week, sometimes I have entire weekends that I play for, but mostly a casual player. So you're saying that a nearly a month of game play is pennies??????

And I've played my toons since I created them, I have not bought them. High SP and Hence High ISK cost for clones is what is killing small ship gang PvP.(would love to go on that Frigate roam through Null/LS with the boys, however then I will have to grind ISK for a month to just to re-coop the loss/s)

As for the idiots saying just create a low SP alt for PvP, get with it, the entire reason this is required in the first place is because of the idiotically high Clone Costs.

Fix the Clones costs and then we can all just PvP in whatever ship we want on our MAINS.


So you are not good at making ISK in game and PvP is too expensive for you. And CCP should make combat and loss more affordable. Hell, lets just make ships free to, and implants. People want to PvP in a dangerous environment where loss matters but they don't want to risk anything to do it. Those two things are not compatible.

In order for Eve combat to be meaningful it must have risk. If you want to go on a few roams and not grind ISK for a month there is an answer, just buy/sell a PLEX and use that ISK only for clones. At 30 million per clone 20$ US will get you 16 clones. That's a little bit more than the micro transactions for DUST players, and I think a fair trade for several nights of stress free combat if that is what your after.

the problem of inflation is not the lacc of isk sink, it's the fact CCP boosted isk income really bad when making incursions, and it got worse when they removed the drones goo.

if the ships / modules etc.... were not that expansive, i would care less about loosing 60M isk.

the probleme is the ridiculous amount of isk items cost now, at a point that you need to grind twices more to afford the same thing than a year ago
Mag's
Azn Empire
#73 - 2013-02-12 14:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Mag's wrote:

As far as risk is concerned, I'm all for it. I choose the ship I risk, the fittings, the implants, even the ammo and whatever else there may be in the hold. The one thing that I have no choice over, is the clone cost. I simply would like to have more choices, in the clone department.

If this means higher cost for certain ones, then so be it. As long as there are options for "cheap as chips" ones too. Big smile


That's actually a great idea. Create different types of clones, they would all protect SP, but maybe a cheaper line that cannot incorporate implants or maybe clones that will only last a certain amount of time before they must be upgraded, or perhaps "escrow clones" that you have to put a big wager on, if someone pops one then they get the ISK.

I think those kind of options would really help to mitigate the clone cost without dampening risk across the board. There is still the factor of increasing the real power of high SP characters while leaving low SP characters further behind.
Indeed.
The one thing they have to be careful of with any change, is the cost to new pilots.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#74 - 2013-02-12 15:18:22 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:

I'm about to hit the point where my clones are going to start costing me 30M. This would take me about 5 hours of solid game play to make, using 3 accounts to do it. Considering that I pretty much only play for about 1 or 2 hours a week, sometimes I have entire weekends that I play for, but mostly a casual player. So you're saying that a nearly a month of game play is pennies??????


If it really takes you 5 hours to earn 30mil with 3 accounts i would like to know how do you manage to ear so little. Even if you AFK mine in industrials with no mining skills at all you will earn that much in 5 hours with 3 characters. Your business plan sucks. And honestly, that long in the game and 3 developed account and still giving a fck about 30 mil is kinda sad.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#75 - 2013-02-12 15:35:51 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
That's actually a great idea. Create different types of clones, they would all protect SP, but maybe a cheaper line that cannot incorporate implants or maybe clones that will only last a certain amount of time before they must be upgraded, or perhaps "escrow clones" that you have to put a big wager on, if someone pops one then they get the ISK.


It's already so, people use jump clones for this, to have a cheap combat clone or a combat clone optimizzed with implants for specific ship types.

Where the pod costs come is not the medical clone but the implants, can be several bilions. Single +4% or +5% are, how much? 100-200 milions? a +6% can be 8-900 milions. And we're talking about 30 milions medical clone?

So, an option could be to retouch the cost for medical clones and compensate this with increased costs for JC and implants. So one could set a "combat " clone and decide what impalnts to plug on it and to risk.

But keep in mind this would be a further shift of balance in favour of more skilled and more ritch players.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#76 - 2013-02-12 19:48:10 UTC
Yolo wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Sure, take away one of the biggest ISK sinks from the game, not like that would make inflation worse or **** up the economy completely.

You are aware that increased amount of combat and death which means in the end, a bigger Isk sink then people staying away from PvP when they can.


Still bitching about this, huh? Once again, your "employees" don't "work" for your money enough already?

Thank you.
Weasel Leblanc
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2013-02-12 20:47:17 UTC
Yolo wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Sure, take away one of the biggest ISK sinks from the game, not like that would make inflation worse or **** up the economy completely.

You are aware that increased amount of combat and death which means in the end, a bigger Isk sink then people staying away from PvP when they can.

Okay, just to clarify - are you assuming that clone costs will be lowered, but not eliminated? And if so, are you also assuming that a lower perceived cost will make people notably more likely to go PvP in weaker ships and in riskier places, leading to a net increase in ISK sunk by poddings?

If you answered "no" to either of those questions, you lack understanding of the concept of ISK sinks.

If you answered "yes" to both, I'll just go shut up for now.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#78 - 2013-02-12 22:20:18 UTC
Weasel Leblanc wrote:

Okay, just to clarify - are you assuming that clone costs will be lowered, but not eliminated? And if so, are you also assuming that a lower perceived cost will make people notably more likely to go PvP in weaker ships and in riskier places, leading to a net increase in ISK sunk by poddings?

If you answered "no" to either of those questions, you lack understanding of the concept of ISK sinks.

If you answered "yes" to both, I'll just go shut up for now.


This may well be my favorite Eve post to date. Edgy but not snarky, a little bit of thinking to understand it, and most of all it's true. Well done.

Cutting clone costs has some significant issues; but as revealed by your post here the ISK sink effect is not really one of them.


Jane Travelstar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-02-13 02:31:41 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.

+1 on this one.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-02-13 03:31:44 UTC
Supported, clone upgrading is just stupid and losing skill points if you forget is just plain mean, clone upgrades should go the way of the learning skills, just useless **** that adds nothing to game play, only takes away in the worst possible way.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8