These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Clone prices

Author
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#41 - 2013-02-11 11:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Yolo wrote:


We want things brought in line, pref also reduced compared todays pricing model because todays model is a penalty against experienced players. This is a move towards small ship combat and away from the capital fights of today.

The risk involved in combat should be Ships, Equipment, Implants, Boosters. This grants a reward to the pilot.
The risk involved in Skillpoints is the time invested in the game. This grants a reward to the pilot.


Its not a penalty against high SP players, it is a reason that some people are ready for null sec and some should stay in Empire space.

It is also a good reason to have a cheap combat alt. When you get in the mood for mass carnage then get into a lower skilled pilot built to fly small ships and have at it.

Null sec fighting is not about recreational combat, there are serious resources on the line out there and if alliances want to hold onto their share then they need to put it all on the line. Thats what makes sov warfare meaningful and exciting.

Maybe someone could explain why it doesn't work for these characters to go to lowsec when they want small fights, a pod is at much less risk in low and if clone replacement is an issue then fighting in low is the obvious answer.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#42 - 2013-02-11 16:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sol Weinstein
Yolo wrote:
Ok here is the deal, I'll break it down so any f*****g idiot can understand it.


Interesting that a MHMC/PN member is complaining about high clone costs. Don't the "players" you have operating in the Metropolis region feed you enough money from their mining operations? I have seen your alliance members just yesterday each sitting in a belt with one retriever just sucking a roid down. And not the same belt. No. Different belts. One ship each.

And, not only that, but some of your corpmates take high offense to anyone else mining in what they refer to as "their belts". Stating that it is "rude to mine in a belt that someone is already mining in". In fact, a very close friend of mine was set to -10 for this very reason by two of your own alliance members from SSS2 (Sanford and Son Salvage).

When I was told about this I came out to investigate the situation and I found the information to be true. I find 7 different belts in one system all with one ship, sometimes two (one mining ship and one Orca), happily and lazily mining away. I also find your Orcas sitting on station grid for hours at a time. When I checked other nearby systems I find the same thing happening in those belts, as well. Aren't you making enough money from this?

I am not making any accusations here. All the things I have stated are true and have been witnessed with my own camera drones. I am also not saying you are abusing any game mechanics or violating any part of the EULA/ToS. However, I am planning on personally flagging you and notifying other entities in the hopes they have some fun messing with you (*whispers* "minerbumping.com").

I hope your NWO contracts are up to date for each of your "employees".

Clone costs are inline with the amount of money a person can make with a higher skilled pilot.

Clone costs are also inline with the amount of money a person can make with a lower skilled pilot. A new character will have well over 1mil ISK after completing the Military Career agent mission arc (all 10 missions). This task should only take a few hours. New pilots should not be too susceptible to getting podkilled within the first few hours of gameplay, provided they are taking care to stay out of harm's way while performing 10 very simple (and educational) missions and earning over 1mil ISK (plus free ships, mods, and skillbooks). 1.2xx mil ISK to be exact when I last ran tests. So, ONCE YOUR CHARACTER BREAKS 900K SPs, you can effectively get podded 20 times and still be able to afford your clone each time just with a few hours of "work".

Thank you.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#43 - 2013-02-11 16:47:18 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.

not completely true.

if i Choose™ to use my main to go pvp in frig, and loose a pod i'll have to pay for a clone able to hold 100M + sp



I fixed it for you.

Thank you.
Youkai Tengu
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2013-02-11 18:53:56 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:


if i Choose™ to use my main to go pvp in frig, and loose a pod i'll have to pay for a clone able to hold 100M + sp



I fixed it for you.

Thank you.

So you're basically saying it's a dumb choice for him to use a frig? Please give me one reason why that being a dumb thing to do is good for gameplay. Seth Hendar explained very well why it's not, which is why I had to quote the unmanipulated version under this. Besides, my main character got 30m SP. I earn as much as most 100m characters often do. That is simply because I'm specialized in incursioning and missioning. Therefore I'm also able to cover my losses in case of getting podded way quicker than the 100m characters. And I do spend quite a bit on PvP. You don't seem to take that argument into count. Most 100m SP characters have paid for their game time to get to their SP count. Sure they got more opportunities, but it does not mean that they will earn more than a 20m character! I think CCP see this problem, as this post indicates.

seth Hendar wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.

not completely true.

if i use my main to go pvp in frig, and loose a pod i'll have to pay for a clone able to hold 100M + sp

my friend do the same, and need to only pay for a 30+M sp

here is the trick, for the very same ship, with the same fit, we have exactly the sames skills, where is my advantage? => none

the difference in SP is because i can fly more ships than he does, but at that moment, it is irrelevant (gallente carrier is very usefull when you fly a assault ship right?)

the only thing the actual clone cost does, is prevent high SP char from pvping in small ships, nothing else.

i will not go pvp in small frig if i have to pay more for refunding my clone than the cost of ship + fitting

Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#45 - 2013-02-11 19:24:00 UTC
Youkai Tengu wrote:

So you're basically saying it's a dumb choice for him to use a frig? Please give me one reason why that being a dumb thing to do is good for gameplay.


Shooting at can flippers with a FF retriever is dumb, lets do away with can flipping.

Shooting at someone in empire space without a flag is dumb, lets make a little setting that wont allow players to do that accidentally anymore.

Buying overpriced items 2 systems away to fill an extremely overpriced buy order that doesn't actually exist is dumb, lets do away with that possibility.

Building ships with self mined materials and then cutting your own throat on the mineral prices is dumb, maybe we should have a warning for that.

Going into W-space and not bookmarking the exit is dumb, lets get rid of that.

undocking in a fat hauler without an instawarp undock or knowing if the station is a kickout is dumb, hmmm warning maybe.

moving PLEX and BPO's via autopilot is dumb, there must be some way that we can allow people to do that and still have the game be exciting.

Skilling up a PvP character to a level that is uncomforatable to pay for is dumb, hmmm, lets fix that.

The game of Eve is based on allowing players to capitalize on the mistakes or miscalculations of the enemy. Every time the option to make a mistake is mitigated or taken away the game losses potential. The potential for people to risk more than they intended, to do "dumb" things, is what keeps the game interesting.



Yolo
Unknown Nation
#46 - 2013-02-11 20:59:07 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
...


You saw me mining in a Retreiver when?
No you didnt, so shut the bull.

What people in the corp/alliance is doing is their business, I do not dictate their operations.
And I am sure the people mining are fully capable of filling their own wallets without touching mine.


- since 2003, bitches

Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2013-02-11 21:02:32 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
Could you reduce de costs , like you did 3 years ago, because i like to fly small ships.


Agree, ship = 15mill, pod = 45 mill Shocked
Mag's
Azn Empire
#48 - 2013-02-11 21:21:18 UTC
Well clones are being looked at. CCP simply do not like their current form and cost. So we'll simply have to wait and see what we get. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#49 - 2013-02-11 23:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Mag's wrote:
Well clones are being looked at. CCP simply do not like their current form and cost. So we'll simply have to wait and see what we get. Big smile


I have a feeling it will go down, but with some caveats. I hope we see lootable SP's or maybe a line of cheaper clones that can't plug implants in, so players have to make a choice when they buy the clone.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#50 - 2013-02-12 02:43:40 UTC
Youkai Tengu wrote:

So you're basically saying it's a dumb choice for him to use a frig?


Incorrect.

I am saying it is a poorly thought out position to ask for lower clone costs. You didn't read all the posts did you?

Thank you.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#51 - 2013-02-12 02:44:26 UTC
Yolo wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
...


You saw me mining in a Retreiver when?
No you didnt, so shut the bull.

What people in the corp/alliance is doing is their business, I do not dictate their operations.
And I am sure the people mining are fully capable of filling their own wallets without touching mine.




Incorrect.

You didn't read the post, did you?

Go back and read it and then you can apologize.

Thank you.
Yolo
Unknown Nation
#52 - 2013-02-12 03:54:46 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
The isk sink has to come from somewhere. If they remove insurance isk faucet, removing clone cost may work. Otherwise, no.

Alternately, give an option for corps to automatically pay member cloning cost.

I'd sign that.
Silly thing is, for us with high Isk clones, the insurance is a joke anyway (t2/t3 ships and modules).

- since 2003, bitches

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#53 - 2013-02-12 09:35:31 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Youkai Tengu wrote:

So you're basically saying it's a dumb choice for him to use a frig? Please give me one reason why that being a dumb thing to do is good for gameplay.


Shooting at can flippers with a FF retriever is dumb, lets do away with can flipping.

Shooting at someone in empire space without a flag is dumb, lets make a little setting that wont allow players to do that accidentally anymore.

Buying overpriced items 2 systems away to fill an extremely overpriced buy order that doesn't actually exist is dumb, lets do away with that possibility.

Building ships with self mined materials and then cutting your own throat on the mineral prices is dumb, maybe we should have a warning for that.

Going into W-space and not bookmarking the exit is dumb, lets get rid of that.

undocking in a fat hauler without an instawarp undock or knowing if the station is a kickout is dumb, hmmm warning maybe.

moving PLEX and BPO's via autopilot is dumb, there must be some way that we can allow people to do that and still have the game be exciting.

Skilling up a PvP character to a level that is uncomforatable to pay for is dumb, hmmm, lets fix that.

The game of Eve is based on allowing players to capitalize on the mistakes or miscalculations of the enemy. Every time the option to make a mistake is mitigated or taken away the game losses potential. The potential for people to risk more than they intended, to do "dumb" things, is what keeps the game interesting.





in this peculiar case, it doesn't.

here is why:

if i undock my high SP toon, i will not undock with a frig / cruiser etc... sized accordingly to the opponent.

i will not fair fight, not because i risk loosing the ship, i don't care, but JUST because of the pod.

i lowsec, i do it, cause the chances to loose the pod are very very thin, but in null i'll just use an OP ship vs his, and ensure that, the fight will not be fair, and he WILL gate raped and sent back using pod-express.

if we see so much blob, OP kills etc..., i think that the clone price is part of the reason (far from the first, yes, but still)

clone price is deterrent to pvp for high sp char
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#54 - 2013-02-12 11:13:36 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:

i will not fair fight, not because i risk loosing the ship, i don't care, but JUST because of the pod.
i lowsec, i do it, cause the chances to loose the pod are very very thin, but in null i'll just use an OP ship vs his, and ensure that, the fight will not be fair, and he WILL gate raped and sent back using pod-express.

if we see so much blob, OP kills etc..., i think that the clone price is part of the reason (far from the first, yes, but still)
clone price is deterrent to pvp for high sp char


Always been so, it's how EVE works. Engaging a fight have to be something to worry about. Risks, costs and possible consequences always been something to consider and, eventually, a deterrent. it's what give sense to EvE fights, is not a free frag arena.

This could be softned increasing the "consensual PVP" elements in the game. CCP prefers to do the same reducing the consequences. ISK faucets, huge passive incomes and revamping ship so to make cheaper ones more competitive in PVP is just this: indirectly making EVE more soft and more "consensual". Making death penalities less relevant, losses trivial and reducing their "drammatic" magnitude goes in the "fluffy" direction.

it's not a good direction.

This can be good cause lower the bar for new players that can access the better part of EVE sooner instead of having to be stucked for months (and eventually quit) in something boring. But is a no-no if related to older players and is in general a decay. It's not a good direction.

Everything in EVE is more cheap today in respect of 2-3 years ago, ISK are not a problem for anyone, and this is bad. So it's fun to hear such arguments from "veteran" palyers.


Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#55 - 2013-02-12 11:18:46 UTC
And, beside... How much is a clone for 200M sp? 65 milons ISK? let's face it: 65M isk are pennies for a veteran character.

Are pennies also for 20M sp explorer char, can do it in less than one hour.

Can be a problem only for high SP character bought by players not really used to the game.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#56 - 2013-02-12 13:00:31 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
And, beside... How much is a clone for 200M sp? 65 milons ISK? let's face it: 65M isk are pennies for a veteran character.

Are pennies also for 20M sp explorer char, can do it in less than one hour.

Can be a problem only for high SP character bought by players not really used to the game.


It seems that your idea of pennies and mine are VERY different.

I'm about to hit the point where my clones are going to start costing me 30M. This would take me about 5 hours of solid game play to make, using 3 accounts to do it. Considering that I pretty much only play for about 1 or 2 hours a week, sometimes I have entire weekends that I play for, but mostly a casual player. So you're saying that a nearly a month of game play is pennies??????

And I've played my toons since I created them, I have not bought them. High SP and Hence High ISK cost for clones is what is killing small ship gang PvP.(would love to go on that Frigate roam through Null/LS with the boys, however then I will have to grind ISK for a month to just to re-coop the loss/s)

As for the idiots saying just create a low SP alt for PvP, get with it, the entire reason this is required in the first place is because of the idiotically high Clone Costs.

Fix the Clones costs and then we can all just PvP in whatever ship we want on our MAINS.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#57 - 2013-02-12 13:09:07 UTC
Sure, take away one of the biggest ISK sinks from the game, not like that would make inflation worse or **** up the economy completely.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#58 - 2013-02-12 13:18:50 UTC
Surely with lower clones costs, there will be more PvP, and with more PvP means that there is more Stuff destroyed, hence reducing the number of items in the game. And some of those items being Implants, which will be in of itself and ISK sink, when players buy more of them from LP Stores/etc
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-02-12 13:20:15 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Getting podded needs to hurt, any nerfing on this front is an easy button in disguise. If you you don't like bubbles go to lowsec to PvP.



Stop reading here, you should get out of high sec Elite pvp and go more often pvp in low sec to learn bbles in low sec DON'T EXIST, you have no clue about real clone costs for players loosing pods frequently in null sec fights but dare to give lessons about harshness of Eve from your high sec safety bubble.

Give us a break.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#60 - 2013-02-12 13:21:04 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:

It seems that your idea of pennies and mine are VERY different.

I'm about to hit the point where my clones are going to start costing me 30M. This would take me about 5 hours of solid game play to make, using 3 accounts to do it. Considering that I pretty much only play for about 1 or 2 hours a week, sometimes I have entire weekends that I play for, but mostly a casual player. So you're saying that a nearly a month of game play is pennies??????

And I've played my toons since I created them, I have not bought them. High SP and Hence High ISK cost for clones is what is killing small ship gang PvP.(would love to go on that Frigate roam through Null/LS with the boys, however then I will have to grind ISK for a month to just to re-coop the loss/s)

As for the idiots saying just create a low SP alt for PvP, get with it, the entire reason this is required in the first place is because of the idiotically high Clone Costs.

Fix the Clones costs and then we can all just PvP in whatever ship we want on our MAINS.


So you are not good at making ISK in game and PvP is too expensive for you. And CCP should make combat and loss more affordable. Hell, lets just make ships free to, and implants. People want to PvP in a dangerous environment where loss matters but they don't want to risk anything to do it. Those two things are not compatible.

In order for Eve combat to be meaningful it must have risk. If you want to go on a few roams and not grind ISK for a month there is an answer, just buy/sell a PLEX and use that ISK only for clones. At 30 million per clone 20$ US will get you 16 clones. That's a little bit more than the micro transactions for DUST players, and I think a fair trade for several nights of stress free combat if that is what your after.