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Clone prices
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Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-02-10 11:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Mag's wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.
Well as much as I'd like to agree, no actually.

Interceptor Pilot with a total of 20 million SP, with great skills for flying a Crusader. Using around 13 million SP, for that ship. Clone grade Nu which keeps 25,600,000 SP. Cost 1,980,000.

Older interceptor pilot, with the exact same skill set to fly the Crusader, but with 156 million SP.
Clone Grade Phi which keeps 203,000,000 SP. Cost 65 million.

Now I personally am not bothered by this cost. But higher SP, does not mean better performance. So no, not perfectly balanced.
I can see why this would preclude the use of smaller ships with higher SP.


Just think as well come summer I am one of the pilots in-line to gain something on the order of about 6 million SP literally overnight when all 4 battlecruisers/destroyers become racial skills as I have both skills at 5 and can fly all variants they cover currently.

How much do I improve in performance when this happens? Not at all, nothing changes except my clone cost. I will be exactly as good with those ships as I am now but I'm going to have to pay through the nose to keep those extra skillpoints I didn't ask for and don't even want. At this point I'm just begging them not to separate out HAC, HIC, Recons, AF, EAF, cov op and well you get the picture or my clone cost is going to triple instantly and goodbye any thoughts of ever fighting in null sec again at that point because my clone now costs more than my fleet. Any skillpoints used in any sort of industrial application likewise adds no combat benefit, so clone cost and ship performance is not really a risk vs. reward scenario at all. My indy alt has 20 million SP and couldn't fly a T1 frigate to save her life. Clone costs are an ISK sink plain and simple.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#22 - 2013-02-10 11:26:32 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.
Well as much as I'd like to agree, no actually.

Interceptor Pilot with a total of 20 million SP, with great skills for flying a Crusader. Using around 13 million SP, for that ship. Clone grade Nu which keeps 25,600,000 SP. Cost 1,980,000.

Older interceptor pilot, with the exact same skill set to fly the Crusader, but with 156 million SP.
Clone Grade Phi which keeps 203,000,000 SP. Cost 65 million.

Now I personally am not bothered by this cost. But higher SP, does not mean better performance. So no, not perfectly balanced.
I can see why this would preclude the use of smaller ships with higher SP.


Just think as well come summer I am one of the pilots in-line to gain something on the order of about 6 million SP literally overnight when all 4 battlecruisers/destroyers become racial skills as I have both skills at 5 and can fly all variants they cover currently.

How much do I improve in performance when this happens? Not at all, nothing changes except my clone cost. I will be exactly as good with those ships as I am now but I'm going to have to pay through the nose to keep those extra skillpoints I didn't ask for and don't even want. At this point I'm just begging them not to separate out HAC, HIC, Recons, AF, EAF, cov op and well you get the picture or my clone cost is going to triple instantly and goodbye any thoughts of ever fighting in null sec again at that point because my clone now costs more than my fleet. Any skillpoints used in any sort of industrial application likewise adds no combat benefit, so clone cost and ship performance is not really a risk vs. reward scenario at all. My indy alt has 20 million SP and couldn't fly a T1 frigate to save her life. Clone costs are an ISK sink plain and simple.
Indeed.

I'm all for ISK sinks, but when they are detrimental to game play they need to change.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#23 - 2013-02-10 13:48:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Getting podded needs to hurt, any nerfing on this front is an easy button in disguise. If you you don't like bubbles go to lowsec to PvP. Or develop / buy a lower skilled frig pilot alt. Join Faction Warfare.

Whatever your solution keep in mind that the excitement of Eve FiS PvP is largely due to the potential for loss. If that is taken away or trivialized then Eve moves from the big money tables to the church bingo hall.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#24 - 2013-02-10 14:35:28 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.
Well as much as I'd like to agree, no actually.

Interceptor Pilot with a total of 20 million SP, with great skills for flying a Crusader. Using around 13 million SP, for that ship. Clone grade Nu which keeps 25,600,000 SP. Cost 1,980,000.

Older interceptor pilot, with the exact same skill set to fly the Crusader, but with 156 million SP.
Clone Grade Phi which keeps 203,000,000 SP. Cost 65 million.

Now I personally am not bothered by this cost. But higher SP, does not mean better performance. So no, not perfectly balanced.
I can see why this would preclude the use of smaller ships with higher SP.


The balance comes from the time it takes each character to earn the ISK to replace. The 200mil SP char has more options for earning ISK than the 20mil SP char. And he has the option of funding a PvP alt with the ISK generated from his main.

I'm really surprised that your behind this Mag, I didn't think you were of the "make Eve easier" persuasion.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#25 - 2013-02-10 16:34:33 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:


The balance comes from the time it takes each character to earn the ISK to replace. The 200mil SP char has more options for earning ISK than the 20mil SP char. And he has the option of funding a PvP alt with the ISK generated from his main.

I'm really surprised that your behind this Mag, I didn't think you were of the "make Eve easier" persuasion.
Well yes in theory, but high SP doesn't always mean you have more ISK. But why punish longevity and consistent training?

It's rather hard for those in high and low sec to lose a clone. It happens, but not if you're careful and understand how to avoid it. So clone cost are very very low on my radar. But I lived in null for quite a few years and can see the issue they have with it.

But like I said before, ISK isn't an issue for me here. It's more about the mechanic itself and what it adds to the game.
Normally I wouldn't be behind such a change, you are correct. But this is one mechanic that I can see needs an overhaul. So does CCP, but we'll have to wait some time I guess till we see any change.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Calmoto
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-02-10 17:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Calmoto
there are ships that I cant even think about flying because my pod is going to cost 5 times more than the ship when I die

terrible outdated mechanic that needs changed

also my condols to all those dictor pilots out there who cry themselves to sleep because of CCP's inaction
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#27 - 2013-02-10 17:42:31 UTC
Calmoto wrote:
there are ships that I cant even think about flying because my pod is going to cost 5 times more than the ship when I die

terrible outdated mechanic that needs changed

also my condols to all those dictor pilots out there who cry themselves to sleep because of CCP's inaction


Being frightened of that loss is what makes Eve combat exciting. Its not the clone to ship ISK ratio that prevents you from flying certain ships, it is rather your own assessment of risk vs. reward.

If you want to lower the risk there are tools at your disposal to do that, but don't ask for the table minimum wager to be changed because its too steep for you. That is so disrespectful to the people there because the minimum bet is high.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#28 - 2013-02-10 19:55:51 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Calmoto wrote:
there are ships that I cant even think about flying because my pod is going to cost 5 times more than the ship when I die

terrible outdated mechanic that needs changed

also my condols to all those dictor pilots out there who cry themselves to sleep because of CCP's inaction


Being frightened of that loss is what makes Eve combat exciting. Its not the clone to ship ISK ratio that prevents you from flying certain ships, it is rather your own assessment of risk vs. reward.

If you want to lower the risk there are tools at your disposal to do that, but don't ask for the table minimum wager to be changed because its too steep for you. That is so disrespectful to the people there because the minimum bet is high.


I like you.

Thank you.
Youkai Tengu
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-02-10 22:55:36 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.
Well as much as I'd like to agree, no actually.

Interceptor Pilot with a total of 20 million SP, with great skills for flying a Crusader. Using around 13 million SP, for that ship. Clone grade Nu which keeps 25,600,000 SP. Cost 1,980,000.

Older interceptor pilot, with the exact same skill set to fly the Crusader, but with 156 million SP.
Clone Grade Phi which keeps 203,000,000 SP. Cost 65 million.

Now I personally am not bothered by this cost. But higher SP, does not mean better performance. So no, not perfectly balanced.
I can see why this would preclude the use of smaller ships with higher SP.


The balance comes from the time it takes each character to earn the ISK to replace. The 200mil SP char has more options for earning ISK than the 20mil SP char. And he has the option of funding a PvP alt with the ISK generated from his main.

I'm really surprised that your behind this Mag, I didn't think you were of the "make Eve easier" persuasion.


Yes, a highly skilled character might have more optional ways of earning ISK, but with that arguement, you're saying that a highly skilled character should go back to incursioning or any other high income profession if that character is out of money? Sure I see that as a generally valid argument, but the thing is that a 20m SP character could earn just as much as a 200m SP character. In that case, the 20m SP character could do way more PvP than the 200m one. This is a gameplay limiting problem, as I see it. It's a bit like telling the 200m character to "do industry or go to high sec, you're too pricey to be PvP'ing."
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-02-10 23:40:36 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Calmoto wrote:
there are ships that I cant even think about flying because my pod is going to cost 5 times more than the ship when I die

terrible outdated mechanic that needs changed

also my condols to all those dictor pilots out there who cry themselves to sleep because of CCP's inaction


Being frightened of that loss is what makes Eve combat exciting. Its not the clone to ship ISK ratio that prevents you from flying certain ships, it is rather your own assessment of risk vs. reward.

If you want to lower the risk there are tools at your disposal to do that, but don't ask for the table minimum wager to be changed because its too steep for you. That is so disrespectful to the people there because the minimum bet is high.


That propably sounded nice and dandy in your own head, but it doesn't really make much sense, if you actually think about it. His argument is, that such high clone costs leads to a situation where it becomes a tangible prohibitive factor especially to the lower cost tier PvP. This is factually easy to understand and verify, since your clone cost alone can multiply your losses by many tens of times depending on the clone grade. It is unfair because that cost isn't tied in any direct way to the performace you get from your ship and seems like bad business practice, because you're punishing excessively those who have been your long time customers.

Nothing you said even tries to dispute that. All you basicly said is that the costs don't matter to you and you tried to link the system to betting. Let's look at betting then. Do the games you bet on automaticly get more expensive as the number of games you've played over the years increases or does the same game cost the same amount for all players no matter their age? Are you physically unable to play just for fun or with small bets anymore? Isn't it actually so, that the player chooses for themselves what games they play, what levels of risk they take and the time they've been betting is entirely irrelevant to that cost?

You should easily see, that the issue isn't about minimum bets for a game, but allowing people to make a choice about which table they play at. The high stakes table is still there available for everyone who wants to play, but you're no longer told you can't play low stakes games. Now you're free to play how you want and put on the wagers you're comfortable betting with. Since the gains are tied to the amount you bet, there can be no harmful efects to the casino operations. All that actually happened is the casino suddenly stopped restricting the gameplay choices of their oldest customers.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#31 - 2013-02-11 01:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Youkai Tengu wrote:

Yes, a highly skilled character might have more optional ways of earning ISK, but with that arguement, you're saying that a highly skilled character should go back to incursioning or any other high income profession if that character is out of money? Sure I see that as a generally valid argument, but the thing is that a 20m SP character could earn just as much as a 200m SP character. In that case, the 20m SP character could do way more PvP than the 200m one. This is a gameplay limiting problem, as I see it. It's a bit like telling the 200m character to "do industry or go to high sec, you're too pricey to be PvP'ing."

No I am not saying that the 200 million SP char should go back to incursions. I said that the 200mil SP char has more options for earning ISK. Not that he could earn more. The existence of those options makes earning ISK less of a chore.

I could be wrong there, but I don't think that I am.

Regarding "gameplay limiting problem" By gameplay you mean FiS PvP. As if that were the sum of Eve gameplay. It is not, Eve gameplay is about consequences and risk management and creativity, loss and the pain of that loss, or victory at the expense of someone else.

If all a person wants to do is dogfight then they don't need a 200million SP char to do it. That char was built to have options other than PvP, or it was built with the idea that those 200million SP's would be useful in some way for PvP, in which case they should pay for the risk of bringing them to the field. Either way the player is getting the same amount of gameplay as a less skilled character.

If you just want to go an have good fights with no risk then go to Sisi. Fly all you want, fight, get blown up almost for nothing ISK wise.

This is Eve, there are consequences and risk, and those risks become more pronounced as a player increases in skill not less. You built a char that you don't like to fight with you think Eve should change to accommodate your poor planning. That is not very Eve like, its asking for an easy button.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#32 - 2013-02-11 01:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Destination SkillQueue wrote:

That propably sounded nice and dandy in your own head, but it doesn't really make much sense, if you actually think about it. ....... All that actually happened is the casino suddenly stopped restricting the gameplay choices of their oldest customers.


I will happily discuss this issue; if you edit this down a bit for clarity and write it in a respectful tone. I'm not going to flamewar here in F&I.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#33 - 2013-02-11 07:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaerakh
What makes EVE fun is risk. Removing or reducing clone prices reduces risk, and not only that it removes one of the few ways CCP has to remove isk and curb inflation of the isk. Personally I think it should be increased for the sake of interstellar spaceship darwinism.

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#34 - 2013-02-11 07:49:44 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

pay through the nose

My neighbor just called to find out why I was laughing so hard.

Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

Clone costs are an ISK sink plain and simple.


Yes. This is true. What was your point?

Thank you.
Yolo
Unknown Nation
#35 - 2013-02-11 08:22:25 UTC
Ok here is the deal, I'll break it down so any f*****g idiot can understand it.

There are 22 different clones, displaying sp/isk and total cost.
The clone grade Omega protects 3 sp per Isk. Clone cost 150 000 000
The clone grade Psi protects 2,86 sp per Isk. Clone cost 120 000 000
The clone grade Chi protects 2,93 sp per Isk. Clone cost 90 000 000
The clone grade Phi protects 3,12 sp per Isk. Clone cost 65 000 000
The clone grade Upsilon protects 3,47 sp per Isk. Clone cost 45 000 000
The clone grade Tau protects 4 sp per Isk. Clone cost 30 000 000
The clone grade Sigma protects 4,63 sp per Isk. Clone cost 20 000 000
The clone grade Rho protects 5,46 sp per Isk. Clone cost 13 000 000
The clone grade Pi protects 7 sp per Isk. Clone cost 7 800 000
The clone grade Omicron protects 8,98 sp per Isk. Clone cost 4 700 000
The clone grade Xi protects 10,97 sp per Isk. Clone cost 2 990 000
The clone grade Nu protects 12,93 sp per Isk. Clone cost 1 980 000
The clone grade Mu protects 14,93 sp per Isk. Clone cost 1 340 000
The clone grade Lambda protects 16,88 sp per Isk. Clone cost 930 000
The clone grade Kappa protects 19,08 sp per Isk. Clone cost 650 000
The clone grade Iota protects 20,85 sp per Isk. Clone cost 470 000
The clone grade Theta protects 23,13 sp per Isk. Clone cost 335 000
The clone grade Eta protects 24,4 sp per Isk. Clone cost 250 000
The clone grade Zeta protects 26,67 sp per Isk. Clone cost 180 000
The clone grade Epsilon protects 28,85 sp per Isk. Clone cost 130 000
The clone grade Delta protects 29,47 sp per Isk. Clone cost 95 000
The clone grade Gamma protects 31,54 sp per Isk. Clone cost 65 000

So if we would FOR EXAMPLE give cheaper clones to newbies (as is today) and then use a balanced ratio of the Iota SP/Isk ratio. Eg; price increases SP/Isk untill you reach Iota, where it will settle and remain 20.85 SP / Isk thru out the rest of the board.

The prices for clones would then be something like this. Keeping current for lowbie clones and then using 20.85 SP / Isk from Iota clone and up.
65000 for the Gamma clone.
95 000 for the Delta clone.
130 000 for the Epsilon clone.
180 000 for the Zeta clone.
250 000 for the Eta clone.
335 000 for the Theta clone.
470 000 for the Iota clone.
595 000 for the Kappa clone.
753 000 for the Lambda clone.
959 000 for the Mu clone.
1 228 000 for the Nu clone.
1 573 000 for the Xi clone.
2 024 000 for the Omicron clone.
2 619 000 for the Pi clone.
3 405 000 for the Rho clone.
4 436 000 for the Sigma clone.
5 755 000 for the Tau clone.
7 482 000 for the Upsilon clone.
9 736 000 for the Phi clone.
12 662 000 for the Chi clone.
16 475 000 for the Psi clone.
21 583 000 for the Omega clone.

Current pricing model is not a Risk vs Reward situation, because the increased price per level is nothing but a penalty.

Look at it from another perspective if we bring all the clones in line with the 3SP / Isk ratio that CCP seems to let the clones land on in the end, it would show a pricing range of something liket this:

Displaying price at 3SP / Isk.
683 000 for the Gamma clone.
933 000 for the Delta clone.
1 250 000 for the Epsilon clone.
1 600 000 for the Zeta clone.
2 033 000 for the Eta clone.
2 583 000 for the Theta clone.
3 267 000 for the Iota clone.
4 133 000 for the Kappa clone.
5 233 000 for the Lambda clone.
6 667 000 for the Mu clone.
8 533 000 for the Nu clone.
10 933 000 for the Xi clone.
14 067 000 for the Omicron clone.
18 200 000 for the Pi clone.
23 667 000 for the Rho clone.
30 833 000 for the Sigma clone.
40 000 000 for the Tau clone.
52 000 000 for the Upsilon clone.
67 667 000 for the Phi clone.
88 000 000 for the Chi clone.
114 500 000 for the Psi clone.
150 000 000 for the Omega clone.

We want things brought in line, pref also reduced compared todays pricing model because todays model is a penalty against experienced players. This is a move towards small ship combat and away from the capital fights of today.

The risk involved in combat should be Ships, Equipment, Implants, Boosters. This grants a reward to the pilot.
The risk involved in Skillpoints is the time invested in the game. This grants a reward to the pilot.

- since 2003, bitches
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-02-11 08:56:42 UTC
Yolo wrote:
We want things brought in line, pref also reduced compared todays pricing model because todays model is a penalty against experienced players. This is a move towards small ship combat and away from the capital fights of today.

.



this basically. Lots of reason why you get "blobbed" or "unfair" fights in this game. Clone costs is among them. I am sure deep in the heart of a bitter vet they would love to engage that 5 man noobish rifter roam on somewhat equal terms in 5 rfiters (or other plain ole t1 frig). But with the costs in clone repair involved...they will bring the sledgehammer. And I can't blame them for it when that clone cost can buy 50 rifters alone. So they bring the pimp faction, the t2, etc....so if they die they can say well at least my ship cost almost as much as the clone.


Its not like the bitter vets make out like bandits here, ship inflation is rampant in the game. My tier 3 BS's I flew years ago fully paid for fittings and all won't cover a bare naked tier 3 hull these days.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#37 - 2013-02-11 09:47:02 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.

not completely true.

if i use my main to go pvp in frig, and loose a pod i'll have to pay for a clone able to hold 100M + sp

my friend do the same, and need to only pay for a 30+M sp

here is the trick, for the very same ship, with the same fit, we have exactly the sames skills, where is my advantage? => none

the difference in SP is because i can fly more ships than he does, but at that moment, it is irrelevant (gallente carrier is very usefull when you fly a assault ship right?)

the only thing the actual clone cost does, is prevent high SP char from pvping in small ships, nothing else.

i will not go pvp in small frig if i have to pay more for refunding my clone than the cost of ship + fitting
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#38 - 2013-02-11 10:05:20 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.


And after this no one will loose skillpoints anymore unless they die in t3 ships. I like idea more than you can mess up in the game and if you do loose your SP it's your own fault that you didn't remember basic things from the game.

I do agree that the clone could be cheaper.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-02-11 10:19:06 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.


Wrong... If you remove having to have an updated clone you give everyone the benefit and ability to pod jump to stations without cloning facilities with 0 risk.

Ie.. I can then use my current medical, set my clone to a station without cloning facilities, SD my pod and go about my day over there without any risk of losing SP.

Keep having to keep the clone up to date, just remove the crazy clone pricing.

...

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#40 - 2013-02-11 11:18:24 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
if i use my main to go pvp in frig, and loose a pod i'll have to pay for a clone able to hold 100M + sp
my friend do the same, and need to only pay for a 30+M sp
here is the trick, for the very same ship, with the same fit, we have exactly the sames skills, where is my advantage? => none
the difference in SP is because i can fly more ships than he does, but at that moment, it is irrelevant (gallente carrier is very usefull when you fly a assault ship right?)



Don't have to be relevant, is one the main balancment factor in EVE: sp simply enable you to use items/ships.

It's not a levels based system: 100M sp char fighting 1 vs 1 frigate against a 20M SP char have no advantage (from the simple SP difference). It's fine so.

The advantage for the 100M sp is just that he can use a larger variety of items/ships, can rely on more gameplay options and can compensate his losses faster.

This is balanced by an higher loss if podded (since the ship loss is not relevant for him). Don't have to be "fair": risk and loss have to be felt, have to be relevant, have to be a problem.
And this need to be in relation to the character: loosing 15M frigate for a 200Msp char is not relevant, so where is his "loss" and risk? Can be only in the risk to be podded.

We can see if the clone price table need a review (and eventually should be compensated by increased costs for JC and implants). But the idea that should be proportional to "what part of my sp pool is used in relation to the ship i decide to fly" is simply stupid.

I know the pod loss is a problem mostly for 0.0, but the increased risk for the pod is just a characterization element for 0.0 harshness. Flattening out the costs means flattening out risks and harshness.

Again: smoothing and making progressively less relevant the PvP consequences is a major step in making EVE more easy and fluffy.