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Does ECM add good counter play?
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Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-01-31 08:05:29 UTC
For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video.

Discuss.
Stoogie
Cadre Assault Force
#2 - 2013-01-31 08:14:14 UTC
No it does not Some of the suggested changes I've seen on the forums to ecm would create very good counter play. The main problem with ecm is in large engagements its pretty balanced. In small ones it just buggers everything up. Nerfing it for small gang would just push the buggering up side of things over to large fights and fixes nothing.

TLDR

Yes its broken but no easy fix. In my opinion.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2013-01-31 08:14:53 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video.

Discuss.


ECM is SO overrated. It does only give you an advantage if your enemy is stupid and has never thought about how to counter it...as every module in eve.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Whitehound
#4 - 2013-01-31 08:52:54 UTC
Demanding counter play for everything is bad, because it makes everyone a winner and is meant to avoid losers.

How would ganking, awoxing, spying, theft, etc. fit in here? It does not, yet it is a part of EVE.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Sab Sab Five
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-01-31 09:02:52 UTC
Quote:
It does only give you an advantage if your enemy is stupid and has never thought about how to counter it


tight fits might not have room to counter it, and its not a guarantee in every fight. its a very powerful mechanic, making its users feel optimized and the falcon overused, iirc.

Eve's counterplay feels arcane and aloof, because there are so many options and so much stuff you would never fit, unless you know your enemy and what to expect. That is the advanced play that makes some folks great at this game.

i hate getting jammed, but i dont fit for it... because i deem other stuffs more important. May be my loss. But it kinda seems that the options are there, yes?
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2013-01-31 09:08:57 UTC
Sab Sab Five wrote:
Quote:
It does only give you an advantage if your enemy is stupid and has never thought about how to counter it


tight fits might not have room to counter it, and its not a guarantee in every fight. its a very powerful mechanic, making its users feel optimized and the falcon overused, iirc.

Eve's counterplay feels arcane and aloof, because there are so many options and so much stuff you would never fit, unless you know your enemy and what to expect. That is the advanced play that makes some folks great at this game.

i hate getting jammed, but i dont fit for it... because i deem other stuffs more important. May be my loss. But it kinda seems that the options are there, yes?


If you refer to ECM being overpowered in solo pvp because someone brings a falcon Alt you would be wrong again...if someone brings a falcon Alt it is NOT solo.
You know...there is always the risk that your opponent may be better prepared than you.

If you are in a small gang bring dampeners...work wonders on falcons...

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#7 - 2013-01-31 09:13:26 UTC
ECM is only a problem when you are engaging target you know nothing about. In wars for example ECM is irrelevant because as soon as one side relizes the other uses they make small fitting adjustments and render it completetly useless, which is why its more balanced in larger Null Sec battles as people know its coming so they always prepare for it.

I don't really see any reason to change ECM. Its effective but has plenty of ways it can be countered. More importantly it creates a profession in the game and the more mechanics we have around which professions can exist the better.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Ravnik
Infinate Horizon
#8 - 2013-01-31 09:31:37 UTC
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway..

The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly..........
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#9 - 2013-01-31 09:32:51 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video.

Discuss.


ECM is a bad mechanic and should be replaced with something better.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-01-31 09:33:25 UTC
Ravnik wrote:
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway..

Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. P
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#11 - 2013-01-31 09:39:01 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ravnik wrote:
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway..

Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. P


If your in a fight and you got jammed, its not the jam that screwed your, its your awareness, fit and decesions that lead to that moment. In Eve all fights are decided by the most prepared fleet. Actual combat is more like a cut scene, its usually just a formality, the results of the fight have already been determined by the time it starts.

The most successful players in Eve are those that know how to predict the outcomes of fights, not the ones who know how to fight them.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Ravnik
Infinate Horizon
#12 - 2013-01-31 09:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravnik
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ravnik wrote:
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway..

Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. P


Hehe true, altho if someone jams you they dont know if you have eccm fitted, fof missiles, etc, so altho i agree there isnt much to counter, there still are mods etc that your enemy "could" be using. It all depends on what mods you are willing to sacrifice to have the "counters" fitted.

The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly..........
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#13 - 2013-01-31 09:48:43 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ravnik wrote:
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway..

Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. P


If your in a fight and you got jammed, its not the jam that screwed your, its your awareness, fit and decesions that lead to that moment. In Eve all fights are decided by the most prepared fleet. Actual combat is more like a cut scene, its usually just a formality, the results of the fight have already been determined by the time it starts.

The most successful players in Eve are those that know how to predict the outcomes of fights, not the ones who know how to fight them.


Falcons, they can cloak.

ECM is a poor mechanic that impeaches upon solo pilots far too much, I'm not sure if it can be fixed beyond a complete redesign.

But trust me, its not a lack of preparedness.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14926633
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#14 - 2013-01-31 09:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ravnik wrote:
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway..

Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. P


If your in a fight and you got jammed, its not the jam that screwed your, its your awareness, fit and decesions that lead to that moment. In Eve all fights are decided by the most prepared fleet. Actual combat is more like a cut scene, its usually just a formality, the results of the fight have already been determined by the time it starts.

The most successful players in Eve are those that know how to predict the outcomes of fights, not the ones who know how to fight them.


Falcons, they can cloak.

ECM is a poor mechanic that impeaches upon solo pilots far too much, I'm not sure if it can be fixed beyond a complete redesign.

But trust me, its not a lack of preparedness.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14926633


Eve is not a solo game. If your caught solo by a fleet with a cloaked ship, you failed, not the mechanic. People often mistake having a "bigger" ship, is an I win button. I assure you thats not the case.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-01-31 09:59:24 UTC
Oh this topic again! New and exciting.

Marlona Sky wrote:
Ravnik wrote:
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway..

Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. P


Jammed = loss? Wrong.

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
Whitehound
#16 - 2013-01-31 09:59:51 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ravnik wrote:
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway..

Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. P

Or someone drops a bubble and you cannot warp any longer. Let's change this, too.

What about weapons? Someone doing a bombing run on me in my frigate totally lacks counter play. This, too, needs a fix.

Why don't asteroids fight back when I mine them? They deserve counter play just like anyone else! Let's fix that, too. More rights to roids.

Do I now vote for Malcanis, yes?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#17 - 2013-01-31 10:27:28 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video.

Discuss.


ECM is a bad mechanic and should be replaced with something better.


I agree. A rework of anti-missile weapons and the introduction of large hull anti-drone weapons that aren't smartbombs would be great.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#18 - 2013-01-31 10:28:07 UTC
If you must.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Whitehound
#19 - 2013-01-31 10:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Malcanis wrote:
If you must.

Are you confirming that this is a stealth "vote for Malcanis" thread?

And further, can you confirm to be recycling old topics to gain votes for your campaign?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#20 - 2013-01-31 10:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pohbis
Marlona Sky wrote:
For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video.

Discuss.
Yes it does.

There is a myriad of different ways to fit a ship, in order to counter ECM. No, it's not just ECCM.

If you chose to maximise your potential for one scenario and forego anything else, you are vulnerable to your opponent taking advantage of that.

None of what was presented in that video happens if one part doesn't actually think and takes advantage of the different tactical options.

The fact that EVE players tend to charge in with only one unit, tank and gank, is not something you can fault ECM for. Actually, the fact that ECM counters are so widely ignored would seem to suggest that it is not common enough, or big enough of a threat, to warrant trade-offs in ship fittings.

I don't see a whole lot of ECM solo kills, especially compared to other e-war ships. Simply because an ECM boat that is fit to be able to tackle, keep in range AND kill a target, is not fit with a full rack of ECM modules and able to permajam a target. They are much more vulnerable than other e-war ships, because of the RNG aspect of ECM.

I know I'd much rather run into an ECM boat when solo, than a Gallente recon with a long point and sensor damps.

Would I like to see ECM changed? Yes, because its perceived threat makes it pretty much impossible to fly an ECM boat outside smale scale gangs that pounce on outnumbered opponents, unless of course you want to be the sacrificial lamb.
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