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Hot drops and gate camps = lame pvp.
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-01-31 05:34:00 UTC
CCP put gatecamp/ hotdrop/ station camp mechanics because they only care about ship loss. It is the same reason why ships have enough slots but not enough grid/CPU to fit properly. If you don't lose your ship the economy dies. It would be like stepping into a country where the nation's economy thrives off crime. CCP is horrible at making fun, they have been proving it for the past 10 years. When a fun space MMO comes out I'd say about 50-100k EVE subs will unsub. the rest of the 350-400k subs will stay and enjoy their sandbox.
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#42 - 2013-01-31 05:37:38 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:


TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets.

Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting.

BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport.

No, not jousting.

Notice I didn't say "don't blob". I never mentioned honorable combat. This isn't two guys barreling at each other under presumably equal circumstances. I'm saying that the people who engage in those activities need to get out of their comfort zones and live a little.

I spend the majority of my time at war with a half-dozen corps and alliances in highsec. I hunt my targets, running 20+ jumps to get a kill, exposing myself to ambushes and counter attacks every moment I'm active. I've watched hunter fleets start into a long warp and then ganked the last one off the gate, then led the rest of their fleet on a chase until I was able to single another one out. I've hunted targets while being hunted by mercenaries, avoiding their attempted traps and continuing to kill the corporation they were hired to protect. That is FAR more of a rush than "we sat on a gate and shot all the lone ships that came through and then warped off when a gang showed up on gate that could beat us". Risk is what makes Eve exciting.


This is a much more exciting type of combat... And no hot drops, imagine that.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-01-31 05:38:22 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:


TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets.

Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting.

BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport.

Yes and jousting was a game just like EVE fools people into believing. But in its essence it is a dark alley simulator.
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#44 - 2013-01-31 06:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jealousy Asques
Revman Zim wrote:
Looking at the kill that supposedly started this thread, I am going to guess that it was a Black Ops fleet drop.

Having participated in those fleets in the past, I can say that they are not easy. You have to scout a system and find a target. That target has to be STUPID enough to stay in one spot (even though our scout shows in local) long enough for the scout to decloak, pop a cyno and for all of us to jump in, point, scram, kill and GTFO before the calvary is called.

Skill intensive, nerve wracking, long waits for small rewards, exhilirating when it works out.

But the key is the target has to be STUPID.

P.S. You were killed in NULLSEC. There is this place with rainbows, unicorns and NO CYNO's.. it is called HISEC.


If by stupid you mean failed to get to warp in the 2 seconds it took for the hot dropper to decloak and scram me then ya... I'm stupid. I could have been a bit faster, but not much.

Or maybe I was stupid for not immediately docking up the second I noticed a random name in local. I waited maybe 10 secs, the time it took me to run the name though my the kos checker, which is neccessary because eve can't handle enough corps/players in the actual in game standings settings. If I docked up immediately anyone came into local, I might survive, but I'd have even less fun than I did dying to a hot drop, and I'd get nothing done.

I'll never join another nrds corp, never thought it was a good idea. But they have a right to play the way they do. It might be viable if the game didnt have the limitations it does, but probably not. I'm pretty sure that a separate non-kos neutral scanned me down before the kos hot dropper arrived in local, because he was at the belt in less than 5 secs. I had been at that belt less than a couple minutes, killing rats.

Regardless of all that, it doesnt change the fact that the hot dropping could still be done without neutrals. This brings up a separate issue. There are plenty of nullsec systems in the alliance the corp i was in at the time that ALWAYS have a known hot dropper in local. Replicator alone had ships in 5-6 systems I knew about, but it wasn't him this time. They can just sit there cloaked up and afk for weeks on end, scanning till they find a good target, and nobody can scan them down. Cloaking should not be as effective as it is. Should my corp have abandoned those systems? After all it is stupid not to dock up with a known hot dropper in system. That sounds fun, I'll sit in dock all day. The large alliance I was in didnt have the means or motivation to try and bait the hot droppers with a hot drop of their own. So maybe it's my alliance's fault? I can't blame them. There's hot droppers everywhere all the time and sitting and waiting/baiting would be almost as much fun as gate camping, and you'd still never know what was coming in.

So many broken systems in this game, but those that use them for nearly risk free "pvp" will defend them untill the day they or the game dies.

As far as rainbows and hisec pvp, I do enjoy that and wardecs alot more, but few corps actively pursue it and instead hide in null when they are wardeced. Truth is most of the game is full of chickenshits, on both sides of the hot dropping thing.

And you've got to be kidding me about hot dropping not being easy. If it wasnt easy for you, you seriously must be mentally lacking. I'm sure its much easier in nrds null where you can use neutral alts to scan down victims, but even elsewhere... Not hard.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#45 - 2013-01-31 06:19:54 UTC
People fight in ways others don't like, in a sandbox. News at 10.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Revman Zim
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2013-01-31 06:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Revman Zim
Jealousy Asques wrote:
Revman Zim wrote:
Looking at the kill that supposedly started this thread, I am going to guess that it was a Black Ops fleet drop.

Having participated in those fleets in the past, I can say that they are not easy. You have to scout a system and find a target. That target has to be STUPID enough to stay in one spot (even though our scout shows in local) long enough for the scout to decloak, pop a cyno and for all of us to jump in, point, scram, kill and GTFO before the calvary is called.

Skill intensive, nerve wracking, long waits for small rewards, exhilirating when it works out.

But the key is the target has to be STUPID.

P.S. You were killed in NULLSEC. There is this place with rainbows, unicorns and NO CYNO's.. it is called HISEC.


If by stupid you mean failed to get to warp in the 2 seconds it took for the hot dropper to decloak and scram me then ya... I'm stupid. I could have been a bit faster, but not much.

Or maybe I was stupid for not immediately docking up the second I noticed a random name in local. I waited maybe 10 secs, the time it took me to run the name though my the kos checker, which is neccessary because eve can't handle enough corps/players in the actual in game standings settings. If I docked up immediately anyone came into local, I might survive, but I'd have even less fun than I did dying to a hot drop, and I'd get nothing done.

I'll never join another nrds corp, never thought it was a good idea. But they have a right to play the way they do. It might be viable if the game didnt have the limitations it does, but probably not. I'm pretty sure that a separate non-kos neutral scanned me down before the kos hot dropper arrived in local, because he was at the belt in less than 5 secs. I had been at that belt less than a couple minutes, killing rats.

Regardless of all that, it doesnt change the fact that the hot dropping could still be done without neutrals. This brings up a separate issue. There are plenty of nullsec systems in the alliance the corp i was in at the time that ALWAYS have a known hot dropper in local. Replicator alone had ships in 5-6 systems I knew about, but it wasn't him this time. They can just sit there cloaked up and afk for weeks on end, scanning till they find a good target, and nobody can scan them down. Cloaking should not be as effective as it is. Should my corp have abandoned those systems? After all it is stupid not to dock up with a known hot dropper in system. That sounds fun, I'll sit in dock all day. The large alliance I was in didnt have the means or motivation to try and bait the hot droppers with a hot drop of their own. So maybe it's my alliance's fault? I can't blame them. There's hot droppers everywhere all the time and sitting and waiting/baiting would be almost as much fun as gate camping, and you'd still never know what was coming in.

So many broken systems in this game, but those that use them for nearly risk free "pvp" will defend them untill the day they or the game dies.

As far as rainbows and hisec pvp, I do enjoy that and wardecs alot more, but few corps actively pursue it and instead hide in null when they are wardeced. Truth is most of the game is full of chickenshits, on both sides of the hot dropping thing.

And you've got to be kidding me about hot dropping not being easy. If it wasnt easy for you, you seriously must be mentally lacking. I'm sure its much easier in nrds null where you can use neutral alts to scan down victims, but even elsewhere... Not hard.



You mad bro?

Yeah... he mad.


P.S. Get out of NULL, you don't belong. HTFU. Get a bunch of friends... Oh, never mind.
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#47 - 2013-01-31 06:27:53 UTC
Mag's wrote:
People fight in ways others don't like, in a sandbox. News at 10.


I'll once again refer you to my death star analogy. Its not about "how people fight", its about a mechanic that I think is in need of a tweak. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think it should be further back.
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#48 - 2013-01-31 06:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jealousy Asques
Revman Zim wrote:


You mad bro?

Yeah... he mad.


P.S. Get out of NULL, you don't belong. HTFU. Get a bunch of friends... Oh, never mind.


It was quite a while ago that I got hot dropped, I'm not mad, and for the record I was in a very large alliance. Go ahead and defend a lame game mechanic. Dropping 30 ships on a single victim is probably the only way you can kill anything. I understand. I'd enjoy it too, once or twice. The difference is I'm not so hungry for cheesy kills that I'll stick up for a mechanic that will drive away more players than it attracts. Hot dropping is only one issue... but combined with overpowered cloaking, boring gatecamps, and a few other things it makes nullsec pvp pretty f'n stupid.

I'll happily leave null and join a corp thats willing to wardec people like you, then fight where its actually a challenge. But then people like you will be hiding in nullsec. Damn, another plan shot to ****. Have fun gatecamping and hotdropping. Do you actaully even get hits on your single victim before your 30 other buddies make him go poof? Why do all of you even bother going thru the cyno? It's pretty funny what some of you must consider fun.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#49 - 2013-01-31 07:03:43 UTC
lets see...

I want to shoot people, where do I go?

well there's always people at gates and stations
but thats lame according to you...
well I guess there's always trying to catch miners and mission runners...

hmm..

wow.. it just occurred to me, there's only like 4-5 places where you can actually find people to fight with in eve
no wonder people camp choke and transit points Roll

really, crying about gate camps is crying about the core of the game, consider a different game

and fyi if you couldn't camp gates you would get a ton more hotdrops and blops

its called the element of surprise, its one of the best way to happy victory according to some long dead Chinese guy
Mag's
Azn Empire
#50 - 2013-01-31 07:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Jealousy Asques wrote:
Mag's wrote:
People fight in ways others don't like, in a sandbox. News at 10.


I'll once again refer you to my death star analogy. Its not about "how people fight", its about a mechanic that I think is in need of a tweak. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think it should be further back.
But it is how people fight. Many simply do not want to use the tools CCP provide, to mitigate the risk. Or accept sh*t happens in a sandbox.

While there may be an argument for changes to cyno mechanics, gate camps are easily avoidable. But calling either 'lame' shows an unwillingness to adapt.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Sab Sab Five
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-01-31 07:10:12 UTC
Quote:
the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space.



There must be. In every game that involves PvP there will be a camp of some kind. Be it near valuables, at zone entrances, or at "spawn" points. This enables players to "get the jump" on those coming to those locations.

It makes sense for a fleet to wait for their enemy on the gate, otherwise because of the nature of deep space, they would never find them. The gates are places in which people must travel. CCP has graciously awarded us a battlefield on grid and mechanics that support how it is used.

That being said, i kinda like the idea that having high standings (why not say 8) with a company would grant you access to their private jump gate, which would take you to another private jump gate in some (possibly traditional or maybe new) neighboring system. Maybe one day they will add a nifty sneak attack feature, or more entrance points... but its not that bad now.

while some systems are always gate camped, reading a map and being careful are the name of the game. Sometimes you just can't get away. Head shot, down and out. That is when you tip your cap, because that is how world PvP is.
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-01-31 07:33:13 UTC
Just cause you're on the receiving end.............
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2013-01-31 07:46:40 UTC
1st.: Gate camping has nothing to do with pvp...it is like belt ratting...it earns isk.
2nd.: I agree, hot dropping in broken...but as long as it works we are going to continue with it.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-01-31 08:27:54 UTC
Get a scout.

Alternatively, Get a scout AND check your targets' evekill. It tells you if they hotdrop or not, most of the time.
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#55 - 2013-01-31 08:35:20 UTC
Is there other PvP than choke point sitting and pos/station bashing?

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-01-31 09:01:05 UTC
Jealousy Asques wrote:
[
I'm sure the hot droppers think its great fun, in fact that was what I was hoping to get into because it just seemed the way to go. Foolproof and fun! But I don't think it's good for the game. It's too easy.


You are right. It's too easy because the victim (AKA "you"):

-Didn't have friends.
-Had a PvE fit (not that it would have mattered)
-Are saying you "was hoping to get into it", which makes absolutely no goddamn sense at all.

Hotdrops are far from foolproof. We are constantly killing bait cynos, knowing they are cynos. Sometimes we get hotdropped, but it's far from foolproof.

The "fool" factor in EvE is very important.
Eisen Kern
Doomheim
#57 - 2013-01-31 09:27:42 UTC
Too much talk on effectiveness, the problem is the fun factor. Gate camps (I haven't been hot dropped) are not fun, for the camper or campee. People do it because that's how it needs to be done as is - I get that. It shouldn't be how it needs to be done to get some action. If CCP can remove the common gate camp and leave the essential territory control choke points whilst ensuring similar or more fights, everyone wins. It should be doable.

Not proposing any solutions - anything off the cuff will have plenty of (easily filled) holes that will be pointed out repeatedly by people that can't think something through two steps, as has already been done in this thread.
HVAC Repairman
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-01-31 09:33:47 UTC
"LIFE ISN'T FAIR"

- EVE Online Player

Follow me on twitter
DrunkenNinja
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#59 - 2013-01-31 09:46:12 UTC
I agree with you on some points OP.
The game is definately still amazing and fun, but over emphasis on gatecamps and the abundancy of "hotdrops" and other mechanics could use a tweak.
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-01-31 10:00:46 UTC
Unfair / lame / imbalanced pvp gameplay is the essence and challenge of this game.

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.