EVE General Discussion

If you are trying to do industry in w-space, then damn, even I feel bad for you.

Not industry in general. But Wspace does have its uses.... Guess many didnt catch that. Damn refining array is pointless though. Completely absolutely pointless... Some of the more fun PVP ive had was in Wspace also. Too bad our current hole hasnt had much

Relative to the ISK coming in, yes.
There are sinks but they get less than .1 of all ISK.
Oh and then there is wealth centralization (That is your queue Goons)
Which makes all the ISk end up in certain people's pockets instead of being spread out.

The refining array is a cruel joke. It should be moved to that new section on the market where they put the captains quarters keys and units of lag.

Here's my 'theory'.

Nullsec's problem is that its design is based around a concept of 0.0 that hasn't actually existed since 2004, as some sort of 'unclaimed wild frontier'. A place where roaming groups of some mining frigates and a couple of industrial haulers (since earlier in the game, everyone had far less SP) would venture out into the unknown dark and belt mine the most valuable resource in the game, which at the time was megacyte. To do this they would have to go through dozens of gate jumps through unknown space, where warp to zero didn't exist, where there were only a handful of carriers in the game and high end min supply would be a incredible journey back and forth to highsec to sell and be manufactured. The trip was assumed to be so dangerous, and the mining yields so low, that only a small amount of high end mins (measured in manhours spent mining) would be needed to build things compared to low-end mineral mining. Despite this, high ends were incredibly lucrative in this dawn era of EVE commanding tens of thousands of ISK per unit.

Then as the game went on, something happened in nullsec. Players started gaining more and more SP, meaning they could mine more, haul more, fight harder. Mining frigates gave way to mining cruisers which gave way to mining battleships and finally culminated with the addition of mining barges. Disorganized and weak nullsec explorers naturally gave way to more stable, more organized and overall more effective groups who as a result could secure output more regularly then when the game was initially designed. They in turn formed alliances (later supported in-game) with other groups for additional stability. In addition, carriers, which at once point were merely mythical, became more and more accessible as characters continued to gain SP and cumulative resources of all kinds continued to become more abundant. Since 'cargo bay' and 'ship bay' weren't differentiated back in those days, the increasingly simple transport of increasing amounts of mega/zydrine all combined to lower the ISK income per nullsec inhabitant. This steady devaluation eventually killed nullsec mining (the ostensible reason for breaking into 0.0) and other ways of gaining high-end minerals became the norm, namely loot reprocessing, because by now ratting was by far a superior source of income.

So nullsec was already broken by my estimation around 2005.

When confronted with complaints about "living in nullsec increasingly not worth it" 6-7 years ago, CCP, still thinking that nullsec in the old vision of intrepid roaming resource harvesters, despite the 'frontier' having long been carved out, colonized, occupied and often feudalized, figured the fix for this was adding new forms of resource extraction in the form of T2 minerals and moons. This turned out to be a more reliable system then the high-end mineral incentive for nullsec because there is simply no way of increasing the yield of a moon harvester or creating additional moons. With the previous moongoo distribution system, it was hardly perfect (with Delve and Querious being notoriously imbalanced) but there was enough R64-grade moons to the point where holding any 0.0 space had definite benefits if only for some moons.

The problem of course with moongoo is that the income from moongoo for number of reasons isn't distributed to individual nullsec members, so for a lot of nullsec players, the income that could be derived from 0.0 was still decreasing. While this was happening in 0.0 unaddressed, highsec was undergoing a series of buffs including increased CONCORD safety, static ice belts, ubiquitous L4 agents and increased replenishment of low-end belts that all made highsec living much more lucrative. Without going into whether those buffs were good or bad, they definitely influenced people's decision in a cost/balance analysis of where they'd choose to derive their income.

Soon nullsec CSM rep Zastrow was elected to CSM 3 (2007) in order to emphasize the 'not worth living in' problem, the CSM and CCP were all convinced that the solution, once again, laid in introducing new ways of extracting resources. They put a Legendary Bad Idea Master known as "Seleene" in charge of this and not only did he implement this non-solution in an incompetent fashion, he also reengineered it so that sovereignty was contested in a way that could only be effectively fought with overpowered supercapitals that required oodles of ISK and SP to pilot (coincidentally, Seleene has lots of SP and ISK and personally believes those qualities should come with privileges over other players who haven't been playing since beta), that as a bonus also crashed the server whenever an average sized 0.0 fight happened.

So now that nullsec gameplay was unprofitable, unfun (because it centered around supercarrier 'flying coffins' that most players couldn't own) and now actually unfunctional, this was capped by making a regional R32 (Technetium) the main T2 bottleneck instead of more evenly distributed moons.

CCP looked at this and decided their work was complete, and would not iterate on nullsec for the next 2 1/2 years after threats of mass unsubs, instead focusing on developing WoW-style raids and Space Barbie.

Make resources finite and the problems are solved.

Really? You make all your T2 modules in stations?
Tell me more about the mechanics of that, given that when I ran a personal large POS I had 3 Equipment assembly arrays going and Component Assembly Arrays. I would have the equipment arrays going full bore, plus usually 1 component array.
That is 28 slots full bore. Now, given the 25% mfg bonus, that works out to the equivalent of about 37 mfg slots I had at my single POS.

The system I was in had 3 stations, 50 slots at each station.
It also had 28 moons. Some time ago, I did a survey one night when I was bored. EVERY moon had a POS up, with about 80% turned on.
If we low ball each online POS at 25 mfg slots, that works out to 28 * 25 *.8 = 560 mfg slots at POS's, compared to the 150 slots at stations. And we all know that 28 moons in a system is far below average.

You want to make BS's, and BC's, sure, you crank up a long run at a station. You want to make anything else, you do it a POS, where you control the means of production.

So please stop with your ridiculous statements.

Nope....

Have been drinking too much,

Believe the Goonz Foolz.

If you can't make more than me as a high sec industrialist, you are simply bad at the game.

You can sell far more of any given item in a single day than I can, and at pretty much the same profit margin.

I'd say do the math, but if you can't figure out how to make more isk as a builder in high sec, you obviously can't add.