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Consequences of A Bored Null
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Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#361 - 2013-02-02 20:22:24 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:


Assuming that this system relies on ISK generated in null is a bit of an assumption. When Incursion was released in its original form for example, null's ratting population started drying up as 0.0 alliances were moving their ratting alts to highsec to grind their warchests using incursions. Which would also be built and manufactured in highsec with the final product being shipped to null to combat over moons and renter space and stuff. This wasn't just the rank and file, I've talked to alliance leaders who personally ran incursions during this era for their bankroll. Renters were still willing to rat in (no nerfed) supercaps and titans for good money (so there was still reason to capture space to rent out), but other then that even roaming in 0.0 started to die as a side effect of highsec incursions.


I never said that moon goo was a faucet, and I don't think that Rellik did either. So I'm glad we are clear on that.

As for the ISK, you spoke of incursion running in the past tense, is that still happening? The ISK to buy all those ships and PLEX is coming from somewhere. Maybe it is incursions, I'm gonna go ask some of those guys.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#362 - 2013-02-02 20:27:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
And what exactly do you null sec players do out there all day? Apparently ratting is **** money, manufacturing doesn't pay, moon goo is not a faucet...Oh, does everyone just move moongoo around? Its a wonder anyone stays in null at all.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#363 - 2013-02-02 20:32:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Here's some data, looks like bounty payouts are the biggest faucet. Rat bounties in null are better but are there less ratters? I don't think so, I don't see a lot of people ratting in low anyway. ---v




"#1Posted: 2012.03.16 18:39 | Report | Edited by: Mai Khumm
6
According to the latest devblog. (Correct me if I'm wrong here) More ISK came from bounties then incursions.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9115

Mainly this quote...

"There‘s certainly a lot of money coming from Incursions. Incursion rewards in December amounted to 9.6 trillion ISK, which is an all time high, while the rewards in January and February were 9.0 and 8.7 trillion ISK respectively. That‘s quite a bit of money entering the economy. However, Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, bounties are. Bounty prizes paid out in February totalled 33 trillion ISK."

So Apperantly incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, but then how come I keep on reading posts stating that it is and how it should be stopped..."

Here's some data, looks like bounty payouts are the biggest faucet. Rat bounties in null are better but are there less ratters? I don't think so, I don't see a lot of people ratting in low anyway.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#364 - 2013-02-02 20:35:57 UTC
Yeah, the vast majority of ISK is injected into the Eve economy through null sec ratting. Maybe its not an ISK fountain, but it is enough to drive this trade disparity.

Equal manufacturing in null will not happen if thats where most of the ISK comes from, highsec will always be selling for cheaper just to get some of that flow.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#365 - 2013-02-02 20:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

"There‘s certainly a lot of money coming from Incursions. Incursion rewards in December amounted to 9.6 trillion ISK, which is an all time high, while the rewards in January and February were 9.0 and 8.7 trillion ISK respectively. That‘s quite a bit of money entering the economy. However, Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, bounties are. Bounty prizes paid out in February totalled 33 trillion ISK."

So Apperantly incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, but then how come I keep on reading posts stating that it is and how it should be stopped..."
"Bounties" included L4 mission payout as well, you realize. So yes, the small minority of 10K players running incusions (iirc) were injecting something like a quarter of the ISK of nullsec and highsec ratters combined.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#366 - 2013-02-02 20:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
That includes highsec mission payout as well, you realize.


Highsec mission runners! With their hangers full of billion ISK ships and other collectibles. Those guys are like walking talking sinks. The only money they inject into the economy is when they buy PLEX, or the odd occasion they wake up in a pod with keyboard face.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#367 - 2013-02-02 20:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Our conjecture really doesn't matter anyway, CCP has the actual data. But one thing that remains true; if null-sec wants their industry to flourish then faucets must be equalized.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#368 - 2013-02-02 22:30:34 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/Sjl7a.png test DCA

I found this, according to Test it does not look like there is any problem with null sec industry.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#369 - 2013-02-02 22:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
so you're basing your information off of TEST troll posters from 2 years ago about a coalition that never existed, at face value? and that measuring things in 'equivalent value in rifters' means large numbers of subcaps are being built in nullsec.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#370 - 2013-02-02 22:44:08 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
so you're basing your information off of TEST troll posters from 2 years ago about a coalition that never existed, at face value? and that measuring things in 'equivalent value in rifters' means large numbers of subcaps are being built in nullsec.

What that information is not true?
Frying Doom
#371 - 2013-02-02 22:48:17 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
so you're basing your information off of TEST troll posters from 2 years ago about a coalition that never existed, at face value? and that measuring things in 'equivalent value in rifters' means large numbers of subcaps are being built in nullsec.

Yeah but I will admit it does look really nice. Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#372 - 2013-02-02 22:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

What that information is not true?

First, that there was ever such a thing as the "DCF".
Second, that moon income measured in ships, implies that null industry exists (this is more misinterpretation on your end then anything the poster claims).
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#373 - 2013-02-03 00:56:17 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

What that information is not true?

First, that there was ever such a thing as the "DCF".
Second, that moon income measured in ships, implies that null industry exists (this is more misinterpretation on your end then anything the poster claims).

So I misinterpreted that? Its not actually claiming that they control "over 400 high value moons with a total estimated monthly income of 1.24 Trillion ISK." And I read it wrong somehow, they actually can't turn that income into ships because its from moon goo, and that is different, it's not real ISK or something.

Or is their claim complete rubbish?

Or did I misrepresent my misunderstanding of a complete fabrication?!?

The best fiction has a lot of truth, that's how you bury a hook. Maybe the DCF doesn't exist except in the minds of players who are about to pay a 500million ISK security deposit and contract all their ships to be moved out into null. But those moons sure do, someone owns them, and their "estimated monthly income" might not actually buy a Titan every 36 hours, but it will buy a whole lot of ships. Regardless if its faucet or derived income.

IDK if its true or not, just something that I found out on the internet.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#374 - 2013-02-03 01:06:21 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Our conjecture really doesn't matter anyway, CCP has the actual data. But one thing that remains true; if null-sec wants their industry to flourish then faucets must be equalized.


Null-sec industry never flourished simply because this never been need.

In the years the progressive triivialization of logistic (bridges, jump freighters and so on) made far more convenient to jump in high sec to resupply anything you needed instead of bothering to settle an industrial framework in your region.

Doesn't matter how many production slots you have or how cheap and easy they're, mostly when you can rely on giant cash income, wil be always more quick, easy and convenient to jump, buy and come back. Everything become irrelevant when distances and locations means nothing.

Add to this a sov system like the one introduced with Dominion do not even requires for you to live and operate in the systems you claim to kept sovreignity, so is not relevant to develop any serious industrial structure.

They now can blame some cospiracy operated by other players, but this is childish: all this is what null sec lobbies always demanded: easy fights with no real loss and risk, easy ship replacement and not having to bother too much for other apsects of the game; a giant PvP arena where nothing never change and none never win or loose, like WoT.
Yes, boring on the long term, but they asked for this, and CCP was wrong in listening to them.

For instance WH communities are different, supplies and logistic is a nightmare for them, so becomes crucial to have an industiral framework in place and care for the systems where they live, is a matter of survival for them.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#375 - 2013-02-03 01:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rellik B00n
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Our conjecture really doesn't matter anyway, CCP has the actual data. But one thing that remains true; if null-sec wants their industry to flourish then faucets must be equalized.


Null-sec industry never flourished simply because this never been need.

In the years the progressive triivialization of logistic (bridges, jump freighters and so on) made far more convenient to jump in high sec to resupply anything you needed instead of bothering to settle an industrial framework in your region.

Doesn't matter how many production slots you have or how cheap and easy they're, mostly when you can rely on giant cash income, wil be always more quick, easy and convenient to jump, buy and come back. Everything become irrelevant when distances and locations means nothing.

Add to this a sov system like the one introduced with Dominion do not even requires for you to live and operate in the systems you claim to kept sovreignity, so is not relevant to develop any serious industrial structure.

They now can blame some cospiracy operated by other players, but this is childish: all this is what null sec lobbies always demanded: easy fights with no real loss and risk, easy ship replacement and not having to bother too much for other apsects of the game; a giant PvP arena where nothing never change and none never win or loose, like WoT.
Yes, boring on the long term, but they asked for this, and CCP was wrong in listening to them.

For instance WH communities are different, supplies and logistic is a nightmare for them, so becomes crucial to have an industiral framework in place and care for the systems where they live, is a matter of survival for them.






i read that and it just sort of clicked.

Its written from a bias but the general information about ease of movement rings true.

You have to wonder after all this time what feedback from the WH experiment is coming back to CCP, and how they feel they should loop this feedback into the wider null part of the game.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#376 - 2013-02-03 01:36:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

What that information is not true?

First, that there was ever such a thing as the "DCF".
Second, that moon income measured in ships, implies that null industry exists (this is more misinterpretation on your end then anything the poster claims).

So I misinterpreted that? Its not actually claiming that they control "over 400 high value moons with a total estimated monthly income of 1.24 Trillion ISK." And I read it wrong somehow, they actually can't turn that income into ships because its from moon goo, and that is different, it's not real ISK or something.

Or is their claim complete rubbish?
To present it in 2013? Yes.
For example, since that was made CCP introduced R32 alchemy where Technetium was valued at 140k a unit it has decreased to present value of 75k per unit. So we can switch that monthly income to 55% of what it was making at the time of the poster, which is 682B monthly. Now you're thinking, 682B per month, that's a lot of coin Nicolo. But what the poster doesn't mention is that sov bills for "72% of New Eden" would be at a base minimum (just running a TCU) 180M x (0.72*(3524-812 [jove/NPC systems]) per month. That comes to 351.4B per month in sov bills. So tech money - minus sov bills, is 330.6B per month net income. From there we factor in the ISK sinks spent on sov upgrades like jump bridges and cynojammers (hundreds of millions of ISK more per month) and on POS fuel mined in highsec, which no doubt also number in the tens of billions (those private expenses are hard to find though).To put that in a real perspective, Last month Goonswarm alone (let alone "72% of EVE") lost 912B in ships.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Or did I misrepresent my misunderstanding of a complete fabrication?!?
Like I said, the TEST poster was meant to troll you (well actually, to troll alliance members not in the DRF or CFC). Not inform you.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#377 - 2013-02-03 01:50:05 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
That includes highsec mission payout as well, you realize.


Highsec mission runners! With their hangers full of billion ISK ships and other collectibles. Those guys are like walking talking sinks. The only money they inject into the economy is when they buy PLEX, or the odd occasion they wake up in a pod with keyboard face.


L4's pay bounties for any rats in the mission that have bounties, and isk rewards, and an isk bonus for doing it quickly. They also get items and LP, but those aren't isk. Security missions can have anywhere from 1-3 iisk injections (isk created from nothing and given to the player). Loot can be traded to other players for existing isk, and so can LP. LP stores do act as a bit of an isk sink too, in that you often have to trade LP and isk for an item, and that isk is effectively destroyed.


Quote:

And what exactly do you null sec players do out there all day? Apparently ratting is **** money, manufacturing doesn't pay, moon goo is not a faucet...Oh, does everyone just move moongoo around? Its a wonder anyone stays in null at all.


Ratting isn't **** money, but it isn't swimming in isk like many people would like to say. Yah, there are trillions made in bounties, but that is spread across tens of thousands of players. Also, ratters are terrible about exaggerating the isk per tick or hour they make. It's an e-peen thing.

And while it does make you isk using the combat skills you train for general nullsec warfare, they only thing to do with it is send it off to highsec (and what ever shipping method you use) to get yourself replacement ships and mods. Some also send that isk off to highsec to exchange for Plex so they can just keep playing the game.

For people who don't do a lot of ratting, they tend to spend the rest of there day playing other games and waiting for word that there is something to log in and fleet up for. Or they roll alts for industry/trading, or scamming/spying, troll the forums, play the meta game, develop web apps to fill in for some of Eve's shortcomings.


Quote:

Its important to remember though that this will cause a lot of ships to pile up in the highsec markets. Thats actually a great result, cheaper ships in high would mean more fighting I think! Lol


If you mean highsec pilots buying the cheap stockpiled ships in highsec to engage in highsec PvP; I doubt it.

There just isn't that much motivation to fight. The trend has been to try and make highsec PvP as unappealing as possible, at least to those initiating it. People still do everything they can to avoid wardecs. Crimewatch and the barge buff moved a lot of ship shooting into ship bumping. RvB is the only real PvP going on in highsec, and to stay newbie friendly I seriously doubt they would every get into BC or BS fleets, no matter how cheap they got.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#378 - 2013-02-03 02:23:48 UTC
shepard who is this "OEG" corp in goonswarm

goons dont belong in wicked creek
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#379 - 2013-02-03 02:25:51 UTC
Quote:
RvB is the only real PvP going on in highsec


Not by a long shot. Hundreds of corps at war with each other on any given day. Heck, I know of approx 5 active wars right now in my little corner of my region. The couple of high sec merc outfits I have contacts in stay very busy, and have multiple wars ongoing at all times.

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#380 - 2013-02-03 02:27:09 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

"There‘s certainly a lot of money coming from Incursions. Incursion rewards in December amounted to 9.6 trillion ISK, which is an all time high, while the rewards in January and February were 9.0 and 8.7 trillion ISK respectively. That‘s quite a bit of money entering the economy. However, Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, bounties are. Bounty prizes paid out in February totalled 33 trillion ISK."

So Apperantly incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, but then how come I keep on reading posts stating that it is and how it should be stopped..."
"Bounties" included L4 mission payout as well, you realize. So yes, the small minority of 10K players running incusions (iirc) were injecting something like a quarter of the ISK of nullsec and highsec ratters combined.


Yep. Goonswarm had a team doing our fair share of that too. Not to mention the risk/reward for even doing lowsec incursions was really skewed.

Most people doing them in lowsec were doing them in 10 man logi heavy HAC gangs for 100M/h + LP. Logi heavy hac gangs are very gank resistant.