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Consequences of A Bored Null
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#201 - 2013-01-31 15:12:11 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Captain Death1 wrote:
funny how null needs so much help yet most of the botters in game are from null


Sreegs has confirmed that the region with the highest density of bots is... The Forge.



And this is also something you guys will have to fface at some point. Keeping to negate the ezsistance of the problem, shrugging "is not my problem", "ok but in The Forge there're more" is not going to help you.

When I lived in 0.0 (was about from 2007 to 2009) I remember for corporations and alliances was a point of honor to chase botters (were mostly ratting bot at that time) and any group or individual suspected to deal with this were treated like an infected.

Today we read from 0.0 alliances forum, mails and chat logs showing as is absolutelly normal and accepted to live with botting farms, we see coalition leaders tallking about collecting and "cleaning" founds from botting needed for the next war.

We se alliance leaders sendng alliance mail to say "hey folks be carefull with botting and RTM we cannot risk to loose some of our capital pilots if CCP ban hammer falls"

If you don't see this as problem in the fiirst place you're doomed; keep negating the problem only corroborate the idea you folks are in some way only suggest the idea that directly or indirectly connive with this; that, I'm sure, is not the case.

True problem of 0.0 is that a small group manage it for REAL interest (that means real money too), thi is one of the core reason why with time you blued everyone.

"Is not our problem, CCP have to fix it". Sure, but why don't you put the same lobby effort to press this instead of just asking the T2 monopoly as gift? No industry buff or monpoly will never be able to counter groups relying on botting farms. You claim to be "the most relevant player groups in EVE" cool, why don't you act accordingly instead of continuosly negating this severe issue?






We did do something about it but the high sec bears put an end to it.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#202 - 2013-01-31 15:13:03 UTC
I didn't say that there weren't any bots in null. I was replying to the assertion that most bots are in Null.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#203 - 2013-01-31 15:15:24 UTC
Every single bot moving to null sec would be the best thing for EVE.

Why the hell would anyone even use that as an arguement for anything?

There is no CONCORD here, the NPC corps don't protect bot miners in null.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#204 - 2013-01-31 15:35:18 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Every single bot moving to null sec would be the best thing for EVE.

Why the hell would anyone even use that as an arguement for anything?

There is no CONCORD here, the NPC corps don't protect bot miners in null.


Honestly, I wonder what these people are thinking? Why would you think a region with a dozen mission hubs couldn't support as many bots as a 50-system region of low-quality 0.0 that can only support 1 bot per system and only when no-one else is in system...

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Itis Zhellin
#205 - 2013-01-31 15:39:00 UTC
Natsett Amuinn, you seems to be a indy guy. Now tell me, how can a industrialist come to live in sov null and do stuff there without being forced to "work" for his master and be his zombie puppet ? Just curious, nothing else.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#206 - 2013-01-31 15:59:43 UTC
Itis Zhellin wrote:
Natsett Amuinn, you seems to be a indy guy. Now tell me, how can a industrialist come to live in sov null and do stuff there without being forced to "work" for his master and be his zombie puppet ? Just curious, nothing else.


Hey guys, here is an exact, perfect example of the type of personality that needs to stay away from null sec (and cooperative mmos all together).

You see it as working for a master, others of us see that question as -"how can I go to null sec and do what I want to without contributing to the greater good and security of the large group of people who make being there possible"- .

Answer: you can't.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#207 - 2013-01-31 16:00:45 UTC
Itis Zhellin wrote:
Natsett Amuinn, you seems to be a indy guy. Now tell me, how can a industrialist come to live in sov null and do stuff there without being forced to "work" for his master and be his zombie puppet ? Just curious, nothing else.


Join one of the large majority of alliances that don't treat their members in this way?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2013-01-31 16:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rellik B00n
Jenn aSide wrote:
You see it as working for a master, others of us see that question as -"how can I go to null sec and do what I want to without contributing to the greater good and security of the large group of people who make being there possible"- .

Answer: you can't.


besides the derail happening here and purely to play devils advocate:

if you are part of an alliance that gathers 7 trillion ISK in moon go every year, of which you see none but the players in upper echelons do get some, what does that make you?
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#209 - 2013-01-31 16:03:50 UTC
Itis Zhellin wrote:
Natsett Amuinn, you seems to be a indy guy. Now tell me, how can a industrialist come to live in sov null and do stuff there without being forced to "work" for his master and be his zombie puppet ? Just curious, nothing else.

I was asked by someone that knows me to join GoonWaffe.

I explained what I wanted to do, and it didn't involve fleets and pvp, they said that's fine we need people to supply the market.

I was even ******* told NOT TO BUILD but to trade. I ignored it, I didn't understand. I just though I was being given advice on how to make MORE isk. I didn't realize why I was told to sell my BPO's if I wasn't going to use an alt to build in high sec.

I was a high sec industrialist for the time I played from '05-when I joined goons like a year and half ago.
I had no idea how null worked, or how it was connected to high. I thought it would be like building and selling in a smaller hub in high sec, which I was already doing.

Challenge is fine when there's fair competition; unfortunately I didn't realize that there was no fair competition involved in null sec industry.

I'm neither a ******* zombie nor a puppet.
In a year and a half no one has ever told me to do anything.

And not whining like a little ***** when you get blown up tends to help a lot.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#210 - 2013-01-31 16:06:46 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
You see it as working for a master, others of us see that question as -"how can I go to null sec and do what I want to without contributing to the greater good and security of the large group of people who make being there possible"- .

Answer: you can't.


besides the derail happening here and purely to play devils advocate:

if you are part of an alliance that gathers 7 trillion ISK in moon go every year, of which you see none but the players in upper echelons do get some, what does that make you?


Someone who gets jump bridges, cynogens, stations, ship replacement, capital skillbooks, and often subsidised capitals/supercaps provided for them by their alliance?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#211 - 2013-01-31 16:08:36 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
You see it as working for a master, others of us see that question as -"how can I go to null sec and do what I want to without contributing to the greater good and security of the large group of people who make being there possible"- .

Answer: you can't.


besides the derail happening here and purely to play devils advocate:

if you are part of an alliance that gathers 7 trillion ISK in moon go every year, of which you see none but the players in upper echelons do get some, what does that make you?


A guy with a great ship replacement plan, that's what. The grunt players get access to income sources and null sec stations, + what amounts to free ships (well, that's how it worked in the tech moon holding alliances I've been in).

Not saying that unscrupulous alliance leaders don't exist , but really, who cares, the alliances exist because the grunts defend space, if some alliance boss was making some imaginary space gold off it, good on em.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#212 - 2013-01-31 16:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Rellik B00n wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
You see it as working for a master, others of us see that question as -"how can I go to null sec and do what I want to without contributing to the greater good and security of the large group of people who make being there possible"- .

Answer: you can't.


besides the derail happening here and purely to play devils advocate:

if you are part of an alliance that gathers 7 trillion ISK in moon go every year, of which you see none but the players in upper echelons do get some, what does that make you?

A line member.

The hell do I care how much other people make off of Tech. I don't deal with it or have any desire to deal with it.
You act like they just sit there collecting isk and not doing any thing for it.

I don't fuel any, I don't gather any of the tech, I don't move any of the tech, I don't organize with other Tech holders. I don't have to deal with the diplomacy, or manage websites, or any of the other tasks that those "upper echelon" guys do.

Ship reimbursements, book balancing.

You guys have no ******* idea HOW MUCH WORK those "upper echelon" guys put into this ****.

You do NOTHING and cry that those that do put in the work have something you don't. GTFO.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#213 - 2013-01-31 16:14:41 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:

True problem of 0.0 is that a small group manage it for REAL interest (that means real money too), thi is one of the core reason why with time you blued everyone.

least blues of any sov holding alliance in EVE
now what?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#214 - 2013-01-31 16:16:22 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

You guys have no ******* idea HOW MUCH WORK those "upper echelon" guys put into this ****.

You do NOTHING and cry that those that do have something you don't. GTFO.



What do you mean "work"? Sovereignty, fleets, co-ordination, politics, infrastructure, disputes- all those things just happen, with no effort, for free? That's how it is in hi-sec, so that's how it is in 0.0, right?

Right?

Jesus, some of these people are literally like children. Mommy CCP takes care of everything for them, so they can't understand why people go to work.


Man I don't care if Sister Bliss is using INIT. funds to pay for every last account he has and ship he flies. In fact I'd be pretty annoyed with him if he didn't, because he earns it ten times over with the work he does for us all.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#215 - 2013-01-31 16:25:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Nobody, ever, answered me this tiny question: why do all play like this is a game based on guilds (a la WoW) where guildies pay the organizations, when EvE is a game based on corporations (including shares, tickers and similar stuff) where guildies are employees and employees tend to be PAID not to be taxed?.

Because nullsec is a game based off resource access and extraction due to the fact secondary economy cannot occur there due to the game mechanics. Access to those resources is the only incentive a leader can offer to prospective members, and increasingly that is not worth. The alternative to offering access being taxing a person's bounties at 100% and then paying them a fixed salary. They're called 'corporations' in name but in reality function economically like lawless mining camps where people contribute in exchange for access to a gold-rich area. What you ask is like wondering why a true corporation didn't form in a series of remote farms in 13th century England.

There someone explained it to you.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#216 - 2013-01-31 16:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Rellik B00n wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
You see it as working for a master, others of us see that question as -"how can I go to null sec and do what I want to without contributing to the greater good and security of the large group of people who make being there possible"- .

Answer: you can't.


besides the derail happening here and purely to play devils advocate:

if you are part of an alliance that gathers 7 trillion ISK in moon go every year, of which you see none but the players in upper echelons do get some, what does that make you?

Part of an alliance that will fully reimburse your Proteus losses in PVP during peacetime.
And pay any of every sov maintenance bill and compensate the POS fuellers/logistics players and other unfun drudge work for taking the time to maintaining said system.
Goons are very good at translating their trillion isk income into increased user participation, which in the long run makes the alliance stronger and more stable. They have their expenses posted publicly.

What we're talking about outside a specific kind of moon clustered in in a small fraction of all nullsec regions , there's not many assets worth defending in 0.0. Goons/CFC own space along with their tech, but others like PL don't have a single system and pull similar tech income. That while a specific moon that the majority of 0.0 dwellers are dozens of jumps away from may be valuable, the space they use every day isn't worth defending. Partly because they are independently gimped and crap regardless of anything, and partly because it isn't worth utilizing compared to highsec alternatives, even ignoring the 100% safety factor..
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#217 - 2013-01-31 16:29:20 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Nobody, ever, answered me this tiny question: why do all play like this is a game based on guilds (a la WoW) where guildies pay the organizations, when EvE is a game based on corporations (including shares, tickers and similar stuff) where guildies are employees and employees tend to be PAID not to be taxed?.

Because nullsec is a game based off resource access and extraction due to the fact secondary economy cannot occur there due to the game mechanics. Access to those resources is the only incentive a leader can offer to prospective members, and increasingly that is not worth. The alternative to offering access being taxing a person's bounties at 100% and then paying them a fixed salary. They're called 'corporations' in name but in reality function economically like lawless mining camps where people contribute in exchange for access to a gold-rich area. What you ask is like wondering why a true corporation didn't form in a series of remote farms in 13th century England.

There someone explained it to you.

Also it's a ******* game!

I worked for over 20 years, I'm paying a cost for not having to now, but regardless of that cost I have the luxury of being able to live a retired life today.

The hell do I want to work for someone in a video game for?
That's rediculous.
turmajin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2013-01-31 16:33:41 UTC  |  Edited by: turmajin
The answer to 0.0 is to allow proper POSes and allow ownership of a system ,on POSes alone .Small control Tower gives system ownership,and the ability to deploy moon harvesters and custom offices and limited defences ,Medium control tower allows you to deploy JBs and a cyro jammer along with moon harvesters and customs offices. and system upgrade units for pirates minerals WHs ect with more defencesA large control tower allows you to deploy a basic station with refining only along with the above. and even more defencesThen allow the stations to be customised /upgraded,as the owner see fit.Want it to be a industry hub then specfic upgrades can be afixed to the basic station giving the same industriy slots as high sec stations, ie ,manufatureing ,research and a chemical upgrade for reactions Then they can add a medical upgrade for clones,then maybe a shipyard upgrade for ship building another for capital //super building,and docking The point is sov will only depend on the control tower ,so less structure grinding even if a little harder.None of the TCU and SBU nonsense.Of course it means limiting control towers to just one per system and most probily tweaking them ., There could also be a settings so its an open to all station if desired or just limited to the owning corp / alliance and blues, or just alliance or corp Also you could introduce a null starbase charter ,where you allow another corp ..alliance to build / upgrade on your tower,without loss of system sov.new income stream maybe as well.Of course when DUST gets fully intergrated planets will have to have some say on SOV,maybe as now in FW ,the more planetary districts you own the harder it is for another alliance to gain SOVand without SOV they or you dont gain anything from any system upgrades IE minerals ,WHs pirates ect.Null is really crying out for proper stations ,and less grinding
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#219 - 2013-01-31 16:48:05 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I can not just put up a PoS


Then WTF are you in null, goon?
Kari Juptris
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#220 - 2013-01-31 16:48:38 UTC
turmajin wrote:
:words:


Sov was controlled by POS ownership in pre-dominion EVE, and look how that turned out.