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Anonymity For CSM: Common Sense And Safety.

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Singular Snowflake
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-02-01 11:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Singular Snowflake
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Singular Snowflake wrote:
CCP Xhagen, can you address these points? In what way is it acceptable to use the CMS reps real names as a threat against them, if they do not "behave" correctly?


I'm fairly certain he's not "threatening" the CSM here but rather pointing out that having your real name on the line should act as a strong deterrent to gross misconduct.

Singular Snowflake wrote:
There are many different kinds of playstyles in this game. For a simple example, many carebear miners feel that ganking and supporting ganking is unacceptable behavior. Do we want those people to use this "accountability" of real names against a CMS member in real life?


I mean has this actually ever happened?? CSM members being tracked down and harassed IRL because of a disagreement in policy?


We have had several creepy stalkers doing nasty stuff in real life to other players over the years. Is your argument that anything very serious is yet to happen? We should wait for the Prencleeves of the world to get their act together and really do something major?

Fixing the situation would require almost no change whatsoever from CCP. They do not even have to promise the total anonymity. Just use the current system, stop using real names and insert a line on CSM NDA about not disclosing the real names of other CSM members if they happen to know them.
Edit: This way there is no legal problems as things remain almost as they are now, just safer for the representatives.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#102 - 2013-02-01 16:26:01 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


I mean has this actually ever happened?? CSM members being tracked down and harassed IRL because of a disagreement in policy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the strongest example we have of harassment in recent history is that of Alex G. following the incident at FF, but this was in response to misconduct that had nothing to do with whether The Mittani likes to mine or pew. It is highly unlikely that the media would waste their time and money to call out a CSM member for taking a stance on an in-game political issue....but actions such as harassment, NDA breach, or other things that a -person- does, not a character, carry RL consequences of their own, and its kind of ridiculous that we have built a game around understanding the ramifications of one's actions and yet people are seriously advocating shielding the CSM from risk at the same time.


Just a correction here Hans. People on the CSM *have* been stalked/harassed because their real names were made public. Go google "Prencleeve Grothsmore" for more info. You also might talk to CCP Sreegs, who had someone call his place of employment and try to get him fired for being an internet spaceship bully.

It has happened, it will probably happen again.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-02-01 22:14:28 UTC
Seems more damage is done by releasing a persons real name than there is to keep them in check. A double edged sword that causes more harm than good.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#104 - 2013-02-01 23:58:18 UTC
Two step wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


I mean has this actually ever happened?? CSM members being tracked down and harassed IRL because of a disagreement in policy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the strongest example we have of harassment in recent history is that of Alex G. following the incident at FF, but this was in response to misconduct that had nothing to do with whether The Mittani likes to mine or pew. It is highly unlikely that the media would waste their time and money to call out a CSM member for taking a stance on an in-game political issue....but actions such as harassment, NDA breach, or other things that a -person- does, not a character, carry RL consequences of their own, and its kind of ridiculous that we have built a game around understanding the ramifications of one's actions and yet people are seriously advocating shielding the CSM from risk at the same time.


Just a correction here Hans. People on the CSM *have* been stalked/harassed because their real names were made public. Go google "Prencleeve Grothsmore" for more info. You also might talk to CCP Sreegs, who had someone call his place of employment and try to get him fired for being an internet spaceship bully.

It has happened, it will probably happen again.


"Seems more damage is done by releasing a persons real name than there is to keep them in check. A double edged sword that causes more harm than good."

Well I do see one valid complaint perhaps.

CCP has stated a lot of their members don't feel comfortable enough to post on this forum, since us players can be pretty mean and cruel and trolly.

Yet they set up the elections, give out CSM candidates names, then throw them into all the players that are too mean and cruel for them to handle. Though some CCP still post here even with them getting trolled, same with some CSM still post even with threat of trolling.

But the complaint from Scooter is that some players won't run for CSM because of it. Perhaps if we had the numbers and created a ratio it would be 1:1 for the amount of CCP people who don't post on this forum because of the fear of trolling and cruelness and players that won't run for CSM.

Also Hans liked the idea of fairness, that some people do take the heat, so he wanted to take the heat. So all is fair and shared. But like I said, some people choose not to take the heat or stay away from it. So its not always fair to expect CSM or others to take the heat.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Scooter McCabe
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2013-02-02 16:45:35 UTC
Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-02-02 20:20:06 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
If getting a death threat is too much for you to handle, don't run for public office, either in RL or EVE. Comes with the territory.


All I have to do to receive death threats is play the game. I'm not sure why people are so concerned about death threats because they never come true. Do you seriously think that some angry, fat computer gamer is going to fly halfway around the world to kill you? That would require too much effort.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#107 - 2013-02-02 20:24:30 UTC
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them?


If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them.

I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-02-02 21:01:42 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Y'know, I'm with Malcanis here. I'd just as soon remain anonymous, but Frying Doom's tasteless predictions are pretty damn unlikely, and I can deal with some crankpot stalkerish crap on its own. Frankly, the exposure would probably do me some good overall - I share a name with a famous harvard professor and a disgraced college athlete, so the bump in google search results ranking could be a benefit.


I share the name of a black guy that wanted to be a white guy & touched little kiddies. I'm strangely ok with this.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Frying Doom
#109 - 2013-02-02 22:14:37 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them?


If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them.

I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard.

Same but the one that stands out for me is I have a business, so that business is registered, so you can see the details on the internet. Subsequently the business address is also listed. From there it is not hard to find my home address.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#110 - 2013-02-03 06:55:00 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them?


If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them.

I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard.

Same but the one that stands out for me is I have a business, so that business is registered, so you can see the details on the internet. Subsequently the business address is also listed. From there it is not hard to find my home address.


Well can you at least tell us how many kids you hire to produce the burgers/shoes?

Also any tax evasion advice?

(Also any job openings?)

This is important to help me decide whether to vote for you.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2013-02-03 07:59:33 UTC
CCP Xhagen wrote:
Thank you all for a lively discussion on this topic. While I appreciate that this is being discussed, CCP's stance on the matter hasn't changed.

Why you ask? Because the privacy matter is the strongest factor - characters are not running for the CSM, real people are where your character name gives you the EVE reputation (and you can run with whatever character you wish). IF CCP would not publish the RL names and country of residence, it would be implicitly stated that we would keep them a secret.

That we cannot promise.

In fact we would be opening up for potential liability - even though we would go the route of not actually confirming that we would keep that information secret, we would still be implicitly promising something we cannot keep as everyone would be interpret it that way. I'm no lawyer but a liability lawsuit of this nature could have dire consequences for CCP as a company and subsequently EVE (now I'm travelling down a slippery slope, but the consequences MUST be kept in mind).

That is why it was decided to go the much cleaner way of stating that we will disclose this information and leaving the participation in the CSM up to the person who wants to run - they can then make an informed decision. That also allows us to use the CSM, and pictures and names of those members, for PR purposes. Additionally RL laws and protection applies to the people on the CSM and CCP is not making any promises that it cannot keep.

I don't see how this argument does not also apply to, say, alliance tournament commentators or the EVE players you interview on the FF stream.

.
Frying Doom
#112 - 2013-02-03 08:13:04 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them?


If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them.

I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard.

Same but the one that stands out for me is I have a business, so that business is registered, so you can see the details on the internet. Subsequently the business address is also listed. From there it is not hard to find my home address.


Well can you at least tell us how many kids you hire to produce the burgers/shoes?

Also any tax evasion advice?

(Also any job openings?)

This is important to help me decide whether to vote for you.


I do not hire children, they cost to much in Australia.

As to tax evasion, again this is Australia and with a business all you ever need to do is show a loss and there is no tax.

But nope no job openings sorry Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#113 - 2013-02-03 08:57:10 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
rodyas wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them?


If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them.

I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard.

Same but the one that stands out for me is I have a business, so that business is registered, so you can see the details on the internet. Subsequently the business address is also listed. From there it is not hard to find my home address.


Well can you at least tell us how many kids you hire to produce the burgers/shoes?

Also any tax evasion advice?

(Also any job openings?)

This is important to help me decide whether to vote for you.


I do not hire children, they cost to much in Australia.

As to tax evasion, again this is Australia and with a business all you ever need to do is show a loss and there is no tax.

But nope no job openings sorry Lol


Now those darn Aborigines took meh jerb.

On a serious note I see why you are worried. I would so hit australia for revenge on friday then scuba in the reef on saterday. Back on sunday to re apply for unemployment benefits now sadly.

Luckily I live in a place, where I can say anything I want to, and no one would come.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Scooter McCabe
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2013-02-03 17:24:05 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them?


If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them.

I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard.


Its called the White Pages and if you have a really unique last that you share with about 10 living people because they just happen to be your family I don't care what steps you take. CCP posts the real name and country of origin of the player and that's all someone needs.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#115 - 2013-02-03 22:11:58 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:


If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet.


Some things are just there, I can't get them off, I went to prison, i was incarcerated on multiple occasions for everything from theft to attempted murder. I'm not a convicted felon but I've been charged with some 30 odd felonies in my life, some of them are pretty ugly. I've had to sit for months on a 1 million dollar bond waiting for the grand jury indictment hearing to get the charges reduced because thats just the way the court system works.

What about playing a video game gives you or anybody else that I don't want the right to have that information? I served my time, its been 10 years since I've been even remotely in trouble but just because I play a game and want to make that game better I should have people that will dig through every wrong thing I've ever done, and then attempt to use that in some way against me?

We had several people connecting on facebook in our small alliance, when things went bad for different members at different times, they used the information they gained off facebook to attempt to take a dump on one of our members, and thats from a small pool of only 1800 people. What happens when its 450,000?

What happens when you, the internet infantile that spends your days digging and posting shows up somewhere that I, the convict, can get hold of you and make you pay for all your ninny internet crap? Want to guess?

These are just a few reasons that knowing somebodies RL name for a video game purpose is beyond ********. It invites disaster on multiple levels for no apparent gain at all.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#116 - 2013-02-03 22:54:46 UTC
I for one will definitely be voting for at least one PL member for CSM apparently. Since I plan on having both my legs work.

Are there any other alliances that should have at least one other member as well, if we know what is best for us.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Josef Djugashvilis
#117 - 2013-02-03 23:25:04 UTC
I am far more interested in what CSM members achieve, than in whatever their real names are.

Last time, I voted for Seleene, and I have no idea nor interest in what his/her real name is.

This is not a signature.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#118 - 2013-02-03 23:32:36 UTC
^ Its John C. Reilly

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#119 - 2013-02-04 00:34:03 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I can't say that I'm all that happy about having my RL name published but I can't help feeling that you're making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is.


I'm pretty sure you won't need to hire body guards unless you start stealing titans or giving speeches at the summit advocating for more money in CCP's Incarna Fashion budget.


Or you are being a woman or a suicide-risk carebear or …

But the crux of the matter is that between the legal risk to CCP and the personal accountability and personal risk to the identified CSM candidate, CCP prefers to cover their arses rather than yours.

Issler had a stalker, but what are the chances that she would have ended up with a stalker regardless of CCP revealing real names up front? How many women play this game and have to put up with stackers despite never having communicated their personal details outside their social circles? I would be interested to know.

There are real world laws to protect people against real world interference such as stalking, nuisance calls, death threats, and so forth.

If you, dear reader, want to be on CSM and are not prepared to have your real identity discovered, perhaps you could arrange to field a sock puppet candidate?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Shadoo
North Eastern Swat
#120 - 2013-02-04 13:47:34 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
If you, dear reader, want to be on CSM and are not prepared to have your real identity discovered, perhaps you could arrange to field a sock puppet candidate?


There's a big difference between being prepared to have your real identity discovered and making it widely available and authoritatively linked to your EVE personality.

Once upon a time my main reason for not running for CSM was that difference (nowadays everyone knows it anyway and I have no time). But -- I still know of few other high profile EVE FCs/leaders from other major alliance who have not ran either due to this pointless part of the process.

It seems utterly stupid to publish the RL names of CSM candidates and it's about time stupid was hammered out of the process.