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On Marriage: Amarr and Minmatar (Seeking Guidance)
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Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-01-30 22:18:11 UTC
Ohrud Omel wrote:
As you are a commoner, you are legally disallowed from owning slaves in the Amarr Empire. Instead, the Holder that placed her under your care has entered what is known as a Custodial Servitude Contract, allowing her to serve you while remaining legally her Holder's property. Legally you are not allowed to free this woman from her enslavement and slaves are forbidden from marriage.

If you wish to engage in a legal relationship with this woman, her owner would have to free her from slavery by going through all proper channels, including filing a Notice to Emancipate with the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Assessment.

I am unable to comment on the moral, social, or ethical implications of your marriage to this woman.


Whoa there. I'm pretty sure that I saw/heard (or the voices in my head told me) that said capsuleers can own slaves. Amarrian capsuleers, that is.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#42 - 2013-01-30 22:20:56 UTC
If people give you crap just move to the Mandate. It worked for my family. Our entire society is a shining example of what the Matari can be when they embrace Amarrian culture & Faith, and being born of such a fusion of cultures the old prejudices so sadly still common back in the core of the Empire are simply impossible.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#43 - 2013-01-31 00:12:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Flavius Arcturus wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Flavius Arcturus wrote:
That was a typo. The relationship itself was a custodial one. The holder did not use vitoc or transcranial microcontrollers.

those two facts were not intended to be connected. they simply happened to be presented side by side. The issue of Vitoc would be a logistical one. at the same time, it is a temporary one, as I would plan on having her inducted into the capsuleer program and cloned. Thus, the vitoc would cease to be a problem. The transcranial microcontrollers present a much graver isses due to the highly technical surgery required to remove it.


I'm truly confused on this. On one hand, you say that the Person who was her Holder to date did not use either Vitoc, or Transcranial Microprocessors.

However, you then go on to say that you'll be putting her through the Capsuleer Program to be Cloned in order to bypass the effects of both Vitoc and the Transcranial Microprocessors.

There seems to be a Logical Disconnection between these Statements. They cannot both be true.


you misread. IF they had been used, cloning would have taken care of them. They are however, not a factor for her as neither had been used


Apologies, must be a glitch in my Translator, I'd read your previous message as meaning the lady was currently under the effects of both.

However, it does clarify matters somewhat as it means that her mind will be her own for making a Decision. As others have advised, the only real way of ensuring a strong Marriage is if it's Freely Entered between two Equals. Provided the Lady agrees to your proposal then you will have a strong foundation upon which to build a Future together. In this, I wish you good Fortune and may all of your problems in the marriage be.... Little ones.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-01-31 02:33:16 UTC
Just remember to not leave the toilet seat up.

We really, really hate that.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Vikarion
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-01-31 04:33:52 UTC
Does no one else find it interesting that the Amarrian representative oh-so-carefully laid out a blueprint for how to make this possible?

Did everyone miss that?
von Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2013-01-31 04:37:44 UTC
Wasn't that the request by the OP?

von Khan
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#47 - 2013-01-31 05:07:15 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Does no one else find it interesting that the Amarrian representative oh-so-carefully laid out a blueprint for how to make this possible?

Did everyone miss that?

I'm not surprised that the question was answered at all or in a short-but-sweet, to-the-point fashion, but I find it a little interesting that Grand Inquisitor Omel chose to respond to the matter in a public forum. Considering the inquiry was made public, however, it seems appropriate enough to me. Not to mention, it provides others who may find themselves in a similar situation in the future a quick reference for what needs to be done.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#48 - 2013-01-31 05:33:32 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


No, I'm just not sure how to respond to such a simple argument with no actual proofs.

I'm used to having to respond to walls of text with no actual proofs, so this threw me off a little.


I shall construct a wall of text containing a proof, then, Tiberious. Please take some time to process this. If the CONCORD regulators of the forums discount this post as a legitimate construction of a wall of text containing a proof, I would be upset but would understand their reasoning. It is, after all, not a particularly strong proof within this wall of text. About "freedom" and stuff? I'm going to be writing an IGS post on that later; I do hope you'll read it Tiberious. I might even ask for your thoughts on the matter as I make the post. At any rate, without further ado, I present you with the wall of text you should be accustomed to. Contained within it is the requisite unit of proof:







_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|PROOF|___|___|___|___|_
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
Ferinus Trucido
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2013-01-31 07:12:13 UTC
What I find particularly interesting, is that True Amarr have actually spoken out against this union. What of the Khanid or Ni-Kunni? You yourselves were once slaves to True Ammarians. Yet now, you seek to turn away a future member of The Empire? Your hypocracy is truely astounding. There is a point whenother races must be absorbed into Pax Amarr as the other former slaves races have been. Granted, there remain races still subservant, but this narrow minded aproach is nothing if not infintile.

This man, with his service to God and The Empire wishes to take a wife, like countless men before him. How then, does it matter that the woman will have been a former slave? Look to your own scriptures brethren, there is no reference forbidding this. Realizing this, you must reneg on your hypocracy lest you be made to look a fool.
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#50 - 2013-01-31 07:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Natalcya Katla
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:

_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|PROOF|___|___|___|___|_
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|


There is indeed a wall, and there is also proof. Whether the wall qualifies as "text" is debatable.

I suppose I'll leave that for Tiberious himself to decide.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-01-31 10:43:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alizabeth Vea
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


No, I'm just not sure how to respond to such a simple argument with no actual proofs.

I'm used to having to respond to walls of text with no actual proofs, so this threw me off a little.


I shall construct a wall of text containing a proof, then, Tiberious. Please take some time to process this. If the CONCORD regulators of the forums discount this post as a legitimate construction of a wall of text containing a proof, I would be upset but would understand their reasoning. It is, after all, not a particularly strong proof within this wall of text. About "freedom" and stuff? I'm going to be writing an IGS post on that later; I do hope you'll read it Tiberious. I might even ask for your thoughts on the matter as I make the post. At any rate, without further ado, I present you with the wall of text you should be accustomed to. Contained within it is the requisite unit of proof:







_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|PROOF|___|___|___|___|_
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|__
_|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|


You, madam, win the IGS. Made a reasonable request of me and I shall consider granting it.


As to the original post. Isn't there something in the Amarrian culture about discretion? I mean, I didn't post on the IGS that I was thinking of entering into a lesbian relationship with a woman that I knew to be a Angel, with a question about what Citizens of the Caldari State would think of that.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#52 - 2013-01-31 14:36:39 UTC
Ferinus Trucido wrote:
What I find particularly interesting, is that True Amarr have actually spoken out against this union. What of the Khanid or Ni-Kunni? You yourselves were once slaves to True Ammarians. Yet now, you seek to turn away a future member of The Empire? Your hypocracy is truely astounding. There is a point whenother races must be absorbed into Pax Amarr as the other former slaves races have been. Granted, there remain races still subservant, but this narrow minded aproach is nothing if not infintile.

This man, with his service to God and The Empire wishes to take a wife, like countless men before him. How then, does it matter that the woman will have been a former slave? Look to your own scriptures brethren, there is no reference forbidding this. Realizing this, you must reneg on your hypocracy lest you be made to look a fool.


I do not recall anyone wishing to deny this Matari woman life as a Sister in God, a fellow citizen of the Empire. That is our wish for all lesser beings. Most simply oppose Initiate Arcturus' lowering of himself should he take her as a wife.

Even among us commoners, there is structure and hierarchy. We are not all equals.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2013-01-31 15:37:38 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Does no one else find it interesting that the Amarrian representative oh-so-carefully laid out a blueprint for how to make this possible?

It was a basic request, and it has a clear and common policy answer. Why would it be at all surprising?

I think it is sweet, and I wish them well.
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2013-01-31 15:41:40 UTC
Mitara Newelle wrote:
Most simply oppose Initiate Arcturus' lowering of himself should he take her as a wife.

If he is "lowering himself", he is doing so of his own free will and in the service of God to help to lift the woman he loves. This is commendable; he is taking on a burden in the service of God, and should be granted respect for it.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#55 - 2013-01-31 15:53:44 UTC
Mitara Newelle wrote:
Ferinus Trucido wrote:
What I find particularly interesting, is that True Amarr have actually spoken out against this union. What of the Khanid or Ni-Kunni? You yourselves were once slaves to True Ammarians. Yet now, you seek to turn away a future member of The Empire? Your hypocracy is truely astounding. There is a point whenother races must be absorbed into Pax Amarr as the other former slaves races have been. Granted, there remain races still subservant, but this narrow minded aproach is nothing if not infintile.

This man, with his service to God and The Empire wishes to take a wife, like countless men before him. How then, does it matter that the woman will have been a former slave? Look to your own scriptures brethren, there is no reference forbidding this. Realizing this, you must reneg on your hypocracy lest you be made to look a fool.


I do not recall anyone wishing to deny this Matari woman life as a Sister in God, a fellow citizen of the Empire. That is our wish for all lesser beings. Most simply oppose Initiate Arcturus' lowering of himself should he take her as a wife.

Even among us commoners, there is structure and hierarchy. We are not all equals.


And tell me, in the Empire, where do the Ni-Kunni stand on that hierarchy? If I recall my history, were you no counted among the lesser beings?

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2013-01-31 17:00:43 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
And tell me, in the Empire, where do the Ni-Kunni stand on that hierarchy? If I recall my history, were you no counted among the lesser beings?


We stand in our place, that's what matters. The Empire is a greased machinery, with everyone serving in the place they blong to. A problem sometimes arise when people don't remain in their place and start moving from one to another. If done with proper guidance, this movement can benefit the whole, or at least cause no harm, if not it becomes something that bogs down the machinery.

Thus, the Ni-Kunni certainly don't hold place in the head of the machine, we have almost no Holders among our ranks for example. But we have key places in the Imperial Navy, among many merchant organizations, etc. So, in the end, what matters is that we do our part, like all the rest. Doesn't matter how big or small this part is, it's our part.

That's what slavery is for, afterall: to teach everyone the importance of serving the greater good, of serving in the Empire.

But, in this case, as I said before, I still believe this movement will probably cause no harm to the machine.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#57 - 2013-01-31 20:10:09 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:

And tell me, in the Empire, where do the Ni-Kunni stand on that hierarchy? If I recall my history, were you no counted among the lesser beings?


Among the people collectively known as 'Amarr', yes, the Ni-Kunni are the least of the main races. As Initiate Sepherim stated, it is our place in the Order of things. Our reconciliation with God is most recent.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Ferinus Trucido
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-01-31 20:49:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ferinus Trucido
Mitara Newelle wrote:

I do not recall anyone wishing to deny this Matari woman life as a Sister in God, a fellow citizen of the Empire. That is our wish for all lesser beings. Most simply oppose Initiate Arcturus' lowering of himself should he take her as a wife.

Even among us commoners, there is structure and hierarchy. We are not all equals.



This is actually a very interesting post, Ni-Kinni. You are correct, we are not all equal. You are in fact a lesser race in the Empire. While Brother Arcturus is a commoner, he is still a True Amarr. Thus, his own affiars, while he saw fit to release them to the entire IGS (in the search of more Amarr Theologians), are above your purview.

"but wait" you decry, "I am a faithful member of The Empire, and even serve in PIE"

Very well, but you are Ni-Kunni, who not even that long ago, would have been under the direct physical control of True Amarr.

"but wait" you decry, "I am not a slave"

Why then, with these distinctions, would it matter if this True Amarr married a Matari woman? Did not some forward thinking True Amarr have to create YOUR place in OUR Empire? Did not some True Amarr choose to make YOU and YOUR kind more than property? Since the obvious answer is "yes", why would you feel it is your position to stop this union? In addition, as a Ni-Kunni, would a True Amarr be "lowering himself" if he sought you as a wife? I personally see this as the natural evolution to the Empire. I welcome this union and may God bless them.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-01-31 21:32:57 UTC
Ferinus Trucido wrote:
Mitara Newelle wrote:

I do not recall anyone wishing to deny this Matari woman life as a Sister in God, a fellow citizen of the Empire. That is our wish for all lesser beings. Most simply oppose Initiate Arcturus' lowering of himself should he take her as a wife.

Even among us commoners, there is structure and hierarchy. We are not all equals.



This is actually a very interesting post, Ni-Kinni. You are correct, we are not all equal. You are in fact a lesser race in the Empire. While Brother Arcturus is a commoner, he is still a True Amarr. Thus, his own affiars, while he saw fit to release them to the entire IGS (in the search of more Amarr Theologians), are above your purview.

"but wait" you decry, "I am a faithful member of The Empire, and even serve in PIE"

Very well, but you are Ni-Kunni, who not even that long ago, would have been under the direct physical control of True Amarr.

"but wait" you decry, "I am not a slave"

Why then, with these distinctions, would it matter if this True Amarr married a Matari woman? Did not some forward thing True Amarr have to create YOUR place in OUR Empire? Did not some True Amarr choose to make YOU and YOUR kind more than property? Since the obvious answer is "yes", why would you feel it is your position to stop this union? In addition, as a Ni-Kunni, would a True Amarr be "lowering himself" if he sought you as a wife? I personally see this as the natural evolution to the Empire.


Wow. Zing. If you all didn't have this silly notion of God, the Empire would have fractured long ago. It kind of makes me wonder what happens when you all evolve away from superstition.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-01-31 21:35:43 UTC
Ferinus Trucido wrote:
This is actually a very interesting post, Ni-Kinni. You are correct, we are not all equal. You are in fact a lesser race in the Empire. While Brother Arcturus is a commoner, he is still a True Amarr. Thus, his own affiars, while he saw fit to release them to the entire IGS (in the search of more Amarr Theologians), are above your purview.
"but wait" you decry, "I am a faithful member of The Empire, and even serve in PIE"


Actually, captain Trucido, PIE serves Admiral Newelle, she is our head, and it is through her that we serve the Empire.

You see, not all Ni-Kunni hold the same station, and this is a good example of it. Admiral Newelle is above in station and position to Initiate Arcturus, even if she is a Ni-Kunni. Something not actually so uncommon in the Navy as well, where we Ni-Kunni hold important stations in many fleets.

So, even if there are ranks, even if us Ni-Kunni are usually in the lowest ones, be cautions with your clear preconceptions. Sometimes they are wrong.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander