These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Clone upgrades in depth article. Interesting read.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-01-29 22:21:32 UTC
Its Over 9000 wrote:
CLONE UPGRADE BILLS: A PAINFUL THROWBACK



Clone cost is utterly bad game design (for many reasons) and as very rightfully Marlona pointed out, cost goes exponential, and this makes the already silly mechanic become really stupid.


In short, the older player you become the more you have to become stupid/moron and have more alts? Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Rengerel en Distel
#42 - 2013-01-29 22:24:02 UTC
My solution, if it was up to me:

1) You can train each attribute. So you could learn Intelligence V, Charisma V, etc. Make them rank 8-12 or so to really make people consider the choices that follow ...
2) Infomorph now allows jump clones at level 1 and each additional rank allows for a jump clone with implants. It also takes 1 hour off the timer. That would allow most players to be able to jump once per day during a regular play time.
2a) You could have as many jump clones as you wanted, as long as they had no implants.
2b) Once you add any implant, you lose the benefit of the attribute skills, and would need to use the attribute implants to regain the effect while in that clone.
3) Empty jump clone deaths don't result in a fee, as it's the destruction of implants that causes problems, not the clone itself.

I think #1 helps those people that still want to train, and the increased time without implants stops them from pvp. #2 allows you to choose the risk v reward of pimping out your clone to aid your combat/mining/whatever vs the cost of losing your pod. #3 allows roaming pvp gangs, giant blobfests, or even those just out exploring WHs to cut back on costs a bit, at the expense of perhaps going up against those with blinged out clones.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Jonathan Malcom
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-01-29 22:35:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonathan Malcom
Malcanis wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Consequences.


There should be no consequences for losing a pod?


Don't be dense, malc. You choose what ship to fly. You choose what your risk. Your only choice when it comes to clones is to stop training or risk a lot of money.

That isn't a fun choice and the game would be better without it
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#44 - 2013-01-29 22:43:24 UTC
Jonathan Malcom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Consequences.


There should be no consequences for losing a pod?


Don't be dense, malc. You choose what ship to fly. You choose what your risk. You're only choice when it comes to clones is to stop training or risk a lot of money.

That isn't a fun choice and the game would be better without it


Death has consequences. Welcome to EvE Online.

The Tears Must Flow
Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-01-29 22:50:56 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:

Death has consequences. Welcome to EvE Online.

Yeah, your hull, your modules, your implants, your Sov, your WH, your POS, your Site, your empire, your "friends". Your CCP dictated clone sink for time played... wait... that doesn't seem to fit.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#46 - 2013-01-29 23:02:54 UTC
Pyre leFay wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:

Death has consequences. Welcome to EvE Online.

Yeah, your hull, your modules, your implants, your Sov, your WH, your POS, your Site, your empire, your "friends". Your CCP dictated clone sink for time played... wait... that doesn't seem to fit.


Fits like a glove.

The Tears Must Flow
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-01-29 23:04:36 UTC
the best bit is when you forget to upgrade. it's a problem that eventually solves itself.

forums.  serious business.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-01-29 23:08:20 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Pyre leFay wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:

Death has consequences. Welcome to EvE Online.

Yeah, your hull, your modules, your implants, your Sov, your WH, your POS, your Site, your empire, your "friends". Your CCP dictated clone sink for time played... wait... that doesn't seem to fit.


Fits like a glove.

Name me another game mechanic from another game that penalizes players for playing the game? For being a loyal customer? That discourages PvP in a PvP game? That encourages stronger and stronger risk aversion the longer you play?
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#49 - 2013-01-29 23:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
Marlona Sky wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Pyre leFay wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:

Death has consequences. Welcome to EvE Online.

Yeah, your hull, your modules, your implants, your Sov, your WH, your POS, your Site, your empire, your "friends". Your CCP dictated clone sink for time played... wait... that doesn't seem to fit.


Fits like a glove.

Name me another game mechanic from another game that penalizes players for playing the game? For being a loyal customer? That discourages PvP in a PvP game? That encourages stronger and stronger risk aversion the longer you play?


That why EvE Online is great, it's not like the other trash games in the market. Also EvE is not a PvP game, it's an old school sandbox mmo-rpg, the last of its kind.

The Tears Must Flow
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-01-29 23:24:55 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
the best bit is when you forget to upgrade. it's a problem that eventually solves itself.

If that is such a great mechanic to punish those who forgot; why did they add the auto bill pay feature for corps and alliances?
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-01-29 23:35:11 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
the best bit is when you forget to upgrade. it's a problem that eventually solves itself.

If that is such a great mechanic to punish those who forgot; why did they add the auto bill pay feature for corps and alliances?


I don't know I think it's just part of the sort of inconsistency that keeps my ship fits on the server side but not my overview settings. I don't think it's a trick. occum's razor and whatnot.

it's possible they don't know how the code works.

forums.  serious business.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-01-29 23:51:34 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Its Over 9000 wrote:
While I am not sold on the insurance part, I find the rest of the article about the clone upgrades very compelling.

CLONE UPGRADE BILLS: A PAINFUL THROWBACK

Marlona goes into three parts of how clone upgrades impacts the game and she gives good reason why they need to be addressed, if not removed all together.

Truth be told I included the insurance part to deal with the loss of the clone ISK sink issue. If transfering the ISK sink from clones to insurance is more destructive and discouraging towards PvP, especially for younger players, than the sink can be easily be moved to more appropriate locations. Places like industry job costs which are virtually nothing.

The rest of the article about the justification for clone upgrade cost removal I still believe in strongly. The cost per clone works off an exponential curve formula. So while it seems small for a few years on the skill points to cost ratio; the ratio goes insane very fast later. More issues with the current system is the sever lack of options at later levels. There is twenty four levels to pick from. The time gaps between ech one available is also on the exponential curve formula. One moment your paying 30 million for a clone and the next minute you have to pay 45 million. Granted the 45 million clone covers more skill points, but you are paying for skill point coverage on skill points you don't have. 150% jump in cost.

I also stand by the my points on the discouraging factor of clone costs. Players do factor in clone costs when PvPing. In some cases it causes no PvP to happen. One thing I want to make clear is in no way am I for risk free combat. Again people are assuming that with age comes wealth. This is completely inaccurate. Most player play on the weekend. Everyone knows this simply by the log in screen each day.

And creating more alts having to retraining core skills is a unhealthy alternative.

I fly command ships almost exclusively.

It costs me about 300-400m each time I get podded. Considering the cost of the command ship + clone + implants, each death + pod is well over a billion isk. While I'm someone with the resources to afford it, many people in EVE don't have access to what my alliance offers for such a simple, yet expensive game it has become.

This is your second good post on the forums sir. Keep it up, you're really starting to scare people.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Hrothgar Nilsson
#53 - 2013-01-30 00:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Wrote my thoughts up in F&I:

Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
I've been seeing a lot of discussion about clone costs and such, and was wondering if a total revamp to the concept of clones might be in order.

So, instead of more expensive clones for having higher skill points, the cost of the clone would be solely based on what sort of implants you wanted to plug into it. Like how if you want to fit large blasters, you have to buy something larger than a frigate.

Of course, higher-grade clones would fit all the implants the lower-grade clones could. The required clone type would be based on the highest denominator, e.g. four +1 attribute implants and a single +2 attribute implant would require a gamma.

Basic breakdown, costs and implant types not strictly proposed but rather as an illustration:

  • Alpha - 100k ISK, can plug in +1 attribute
  • Beta - 250k ISK, can plug in X01 skill hardwiring
  • Gamma - 500k ISK, can plug in +2 attribute
  • Delta - 1mil ISK, can plug in X02 skill hardwiring
  • Epsilon - 1.5 mil ISK, can plug in +3 attribute
  • Zeta - 2.5 mil ISK, can plug in X03 skill hardwiring
  • Eta - 4 mil ISK, can plug in +4 attribute
  • Theta - 6 mil ISK, can plug in X04 skill hardwiring
  • Iota - 8.5 mil ISK, can plug +5 attribute
  • Kappa - 11 mil ISK, can plug in X05 skill hardwiring
  • Lambda, Mu, Nu, Xi, etc. - higher-level hardwiring and faction/pirate implants

Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
I was thinking along the lines of a ship and modules - clone grades and implants become analogous to that model. Like how a bigger ship is required for bigger modules, a better clone is needed for better implants.

The current system has the potentiality of being regressive - high SP doesn't necessarily equate to high income, and at higher SP levels, especially, the current system can act as a regressive tax on PvP. Some 25-odd poddings of a 95mil SP works out to about the price of a PLEX.

By basing clone costs on the type of implants installed, an ISK sink is maintained, but on those with a proven ability to afford and willingness to pay for the advantages given by implants. Regressiveness is removed. And still, the requisite clone for certain implants wouldn't even exceed the price of a single implant that clone allows the possibility to install.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=199205&find=unread

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Ironbottom Ivan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-01-30 01:18:18 UTC
So if your podded then you lose nothing?? The way I see it is if you remove clone costs whats the point of podding anyone ever ?
I guess if the implants count as a loss there's some risk, but how long before the cry's come for that to change?

While Eve is a game and its spaceships and pixels I enjoy it because of the risk. Gets my blood pumping hope that doesn't change anytime soon.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#55 - 2013-01-30 01:41:12 UTC
Ironbottom Ivan wrote:
So if your podded then you lose nothing?? The way I see it is if you remove clone costs whats the point of podding anyone ever ?
I guess if the implants count as a loss there's some risk, but how long before the cry's come for that to change?

While Eve is a game and its spaceships and pixels I enjoy it because of the risk. Gets my blood pumping hope that doesn't change anytime soon.


yes of course but that should ideally be a player choice of risk vs reward, which the implants give and not just a tax on dying. I expect if you took away clone costs a lot of people would use the money they save to buy implants if they were confident about a situation or fly with a clean clone if not. that also makes it a chocolate box for the guy podding you as he may get a bounty payout or nothing whatsoever.

forums.  serious business.
Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#56 - 2013-01-30 02:00:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Pyre leFay
Ironbottom Ivan wrote:
So if your podded then you lose nothing?? The way I see it is if you remove clone costs whats the point of podding anyone ever ?
I guess if the implants count as a loss there's some risk, but how long before the cry's come for that to change?

While Eve is a game and its spaceships and pixels I enjoy it because of the risk. Gets my blood pumping hope that doesn't change anytime soon.


It takes them out of the fight completely if they don't have a clone vat nearby.
Implants are plenty of a loss and always have been. As they are above and beyond basic ship operation requirements and used purely for an advantage. An offset to SP clones can be Slot Clones. Offer X amount of slots for hardwires or implants or boosters per clone grade where a free clone offers no possibility for even a drug boost. These slot clones price should also be added to bounty payouts.
There is more than enough risk or replacement opportunities left over abolishing archaic steps which are only around to offer an illusion of complexity when its only job is making up for other bad systems like insurance faucets.
At-least Insurance is dictated by what you choose to fly, not how long you decided to keep playing the game.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#57 - 2013-01-30 02:20:20 UTC
Pyre leFay wrote:
It takes them out of the fight completely if they don't have a clone vat nearby.
Really? I thought it was pretty much standard practice to NOT pod anybody and leave them stranded in bubbles until the end of the fight, and then go thru and mop up pods. Cuz podding just allows them to reship and come back to the battle (strangely, people don't like self-destructing their pods). And yes, that only happens in null. Cuz unless you're an idiot, that is the only place you should end up getting podded.

(Note - For full disclosure I was an idiot recently and got podded in hi-sec, cuz I don't bother reading up on aggro mechanics.)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#58 - 2013-01-30 02:41:44 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Just... stop posting. You're impeding important discussion here.
Unsuccessful at everything, including trolling.

Better trolls would improve GD ...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#59 - 2013-01-30 02:42:40 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Pyre leFay wrote:
It takes them out of the fight completely if they don't have a clone vat nearby.
Really? I thought it was pretty much standard practice to NOT pod anybody and leave them stranded in bubbles until the end of the fight, and then go thru and mop up pods. Cuz podding just allows them to reship and come back to the battle (strangely, people don't like self-destructing their pods). And yes, that only happens in null. Cuz unless you're an idiot, that is the only place you should end up getting podded.

(Note - For full disclosure I was an idiot recently and got podded in hi-sec, cuz I don't bother reading up on aggro mechanics.)

It depends, but yes. Wasting a volley of your guns to pod someone when they're in a bubble in high TiDi is making it faster for them to reship as compared to having them slowboat out of a bubble (haha) or self-destruct.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dea della Morte
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-01-30 02:46:14 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Oh look...a themittani.com link...this will be informative and in no way biased. What else would we expect from the foxnews of the eve world. I will grab popcorn and a snuggie and settle in for a nice long read.



This man has no idea what he's talking about. It's a well written article that touches on just about anything, you're the biased one here i think.