Crime & Punishment

Yea, we would have to gank that instead. That gives one miner time to beat feet.

It's the classic "Someone must do something - wait, no, not me, I'm afk mining". It's much easier to just cry on the forums for more nerfs to ganking.

I think that is perfectly accurate, you may as well go for yield over tank as it makes no difference to the outcome. Going with yield will in the long term mitigate the impact of losses sooner and as an individual you shouldn’t be losing a ship every day so it should be a viable strategy. It certainly makes no sense for an individual to have an escort.

For fleet operations the inability to defend an Orca raises some issues. In that case they used at least a dozen ships which are enough to make a defence pointless. Even if there had been some ships to keep the Orca safe it wouldn’t be enough to prevent a fleet of that size from taking out a few barges instead. With such numbers it is cheaper to sacrifice the Orca.

Economically it is always best to have as many people generating income as possible, you can only control the rate and amount of your income so maximise it. The loses you have no control over so you can’t plan for them.
Each ship defending a mining fleet costs you somewhere in the region of 15m/hour in lost income but then those pilots also take a slice of the remaining income so in real terms and for the sake of ease I’ll go with a total of 20m/hour per escort. A single escort is therefore pretty much the equivalent of losing one Hulk for every seven or eight hours of mining (can’t remember the insurance value) and realistically you’d have to be pretty unlucky to lose a ship so often. For a fleet you'd need more than one escort so you would be costing yourself more than a ship per operation by attempting a reasonable defence.

So... you're saying that buying insurance for your car is a bad idea because you're losing money every mile that you don't wreck your car? And that if you do buy insurance you should drive on bald tires to avoid wasting your insurance money.

Ooookay.


Tanked Exhumers do not and never have gotten ganked anywhere near as often as untanked ones. That means that there is a meaningful difference between yield fit and tank fit.

Who is 'you'? Because I can assure you that the New Order feels that no change of tactics is required.

Not quite, not really close, not at all.

First off you assume tech 2 ship insurance makes a dent in the amount lost.

I pay for car insurance mainly due to outside causes, like someone else hitting me or acts of god ( hail, flood, fire, etc ) It is a bet against the universe.

To make you car analogy better: it would be like adding 1600mm plate to your car so your bumper will stay shiny after being hit. You never intend to hit anything and don't intend for it in advance either. Meanwhile the added cost per mile in fuel will long pay or a new bumper before the plates did any good saving the old one.

Avoiding a gank by fitting tank is not a bad idea, but the loss of income will be more than simply buying a new ship when you do get ganked.

If we all fit tank then the bar will be raised in the game of escalation.

The only way to win is not to play.

Jun Inoue > does bumping someone's ship considered as harrasment?
ISD Athechu > No
ISD Athechu > https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2535377
ISD Athechu > Official GM response
Jun Inoue > but
Jun Inoue > However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment
ISD Athechu > If they are doing it in 1 system
ISD Athechu > and continue to do it in 1 system
ISD Athechu > that is not harassment
ISD Athechu > if you travel 20 jumps away in to another region
ISD Athechu > and they follow you and continue
ISD Athechu > that's harassment
ISD Athechu > https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2536157#post2536157
Jun Inoue > oh ok
ISD Athechu > 2nd paragraph
Jun Inoue > then I think Ill go to jita, and bump freigther there for a day

Congratulations on choosing honorable PvP over something mind-destroying like mining.

Cars do not earn an income and car insurance does not affect that income. With a commercial vehicle where you could claim an income existed the insurance will not have an effect on it. The analogy still does not equate to the fitting of a mining barge where its income will be affected by its ‘insurance’.
If a person had a mining ship and just flew about never mining then the analogy might work but it is lacking an important factor otherwise.

The point being made was that there was no defensive option because if New Order target you then they will gank you. This was backed up with the examples of the Orca and (tanked) Mack. As New Order exists on donations they are not constrained in the same way as a traditional organisation, it doesn’t matter to them if they lose ten ships taking out a Retriever, everything is equally vulnerable so there are no choices to be made.

The benefit or functionality of a car is not proportional to the cost of its insurance. Legal requirements ignored, the car does and offers the same things with or without insurance.


You are suggesting that if the price of insurance exceeded the value of the car that it would be a good idea to buy the insurance. An individual does not get ganked often enough for a tank to earn its keep, more so since tanking is not guaranteed to prevent a ganking.



To a ‘normal’ ganker I agree that it would make sense to shop around for the most vulnerable target. However in this case the discussion concerned new order whose standard tactic is to know the max ehp of the target and then send sufficient DPS, they exist outside the normal ganking economics.

Im curious how the Tornado is supposed to help matters, I did address the costs of guards earlier but essentially it costs you more than 15m/hour to have a guard, that’s the equivalent of losing a Retriever every two hours. If killing the ganking party is more expensive than being ganked why not just be ganked or use the self destruct, it is a cheaper option and you at least get to see an explosion.

I agree that invulns on a Mack should be required by law but they don’t impact on yield, cap can be an issue but you don’t need to cycle lasers whilst you’re being shot at. In normal situations it is definitely the way to go but New Order will take them out if they feel like it.
If you are ATK you have to be looking at the right thing at the right time, it’s easy to miss a ship warping in for a few seconds if you’re reading something in chat. Staying aligned and being way off the warp in is the biggest life safer as you get those extra seconds back.

You do have a point that Skiffs and Procurers can be fairly beefy when you want them to be. However they may as well have been textured with Admiral Ackbars face, most people mining in them (in hi-sec) are such fresh escapees that they are still wearing strait jackets, the rest are up to something. Im not certain but I think an Orca EHP is in the region of a tanked Procurer and a Skiff can be in the region of a Navy Raven? I’m just waiting on some drone skills and then my Procurers going out duelling (and it might actually win a few fights). There yields make them expensive to mine in when compared to more gankable options.