Crime & Punishment

CCP should stay out of the babysitting game. If you made this MMO as a "sandbox" let it stand as one.

1) Scams are part of the sandbox
a) Jita is notorious for this

2) Will ganking the same person or group over and over be considered harassment as well?
a) This is typical practice to gain a leverage of an area or system.

The art of bumping actually has become a good business of making additional isk. We have our mercenaries, bounty hunters, other miners WANT and PAY people to gank, bump or otherwise so they can make a profit.

3) Bumping is a good mechanic for detouring AFK assisted mining via one of the many BOT programs out there or custom variations there of.

It is not that hard to change from one space to another, most bumpers (or gankers) will not move their operations around one person. So in conclusion the argument about "omg make bumping an exploit" is just ridiculous.

I think the Spartans put it best, “If.”.
Whilst in general terms the gameplay could be described as sandbox in style the reality is that the implementation has always gone beyond that of a sandbox and it has always had to.



I think it has long been accepted that financially speaking the only winner is James 315, it is a good business for him. For everyone else the only new thing seems to be the slightly misguided belief that some new market has been created when in reality all that has happened is that a certain set of player behaviour has been grouped together under a single term. The business of disruption has a long history and simply reflects the reality that industrial game play is not necessarily as passive as it may appear to be on the surface.

A lot of irritation is actually rooted in the use of NPC or tiny player corps. Effectively there is an alliance with none of the cost or risk. The structure used by the bumper alliance in fact makes it cheaper and more practical to declare war on Goonswarm. This structure prevents industrialists from paying mercenary organisations to provide a more militaristic response than a Retriever will ever manage. Mercenaries are therefore not really a part of this food chain, certainly they are not able to make the amounts of isk that they would be able to on a level playing field.


Making considered observations of a suspected bot and then using the in game reporting system is the only effective way to take action against a botter. That is the only in game mechanic that deters botting.
I had always assumed that there was meant to be humour in the statement “Bot-aspirant behavior is not permitted” but there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding as to what a bot is aspiring to be. Why would the bot sit still while a gank capable ship approached it.

The issue is not so much if something should happen when two ships collide it is how that should fit into the rock/paper/scissor model that is typical of Eve.

I’ll refer you to page 1 for a fairly clear statement about what is and is not considered harassment.

The majority of New Order gankers (and a few friends who like highsec wardecs) have been in an alliance for quite some time. The miners are the ones hiding in NPC corps.

Two things wrong with your list. The first being that's the format makes it terrible to read, the second is I'm not on it.

No, I complained that they were in NPC or tiny player corps. As your caveat eludes to, it would be easy for me to demonstrate that some are in NPC corps.
Just to be clear though, I have never claimed where the majority are and for the purposes of my point it would have been more beneficial if they were not located in NPC corps.

Kainotomiu has provided evidence that I need to expand what I said to include hiding in larger corporations which I am happy to do. The source he has quoted (in ball park maths) suggests that to war dec the twenty or so bumpers listed you would have to go to war with somewhere in the region of 13,000 chars, the actual targets being less than 0.2% of the people you would be at war with. That passes any test for being impractical to do. Doing so would certainly exceed the war dec price cap, something that puts TEST, Goons etc. at a disadvantage comparatively. That is why I proposed that it created an imbalance.

I must confess that my original point was largely inspired by a post made by the bumper messiah himself; I wasn’t expecting the theology department to have such a differing view on a tactic that has more traditionally been bundled as a part of emergent game play.

I have demonstrated that the majority are not in a single corporation/alliance as was claimed by admiral root. I have never said that the remainder were all in NPC corporations, the truth is that some of them are, some of them are in tiny player corporations, some are a part of larger unrelated player organisations and a minority of them are in CODE..



Personally I try to pay most attention to the column in the middle rather than the one on the left; the content is much more relevant. This posting alt is in an NPC corporation, I am of the opinion that in certain matters you should be able to post as an account holder rather than an in game character, certainly where game rules are called into question. The best effort I can make toward that is to remove any indication of my in game affiliations in order that they do not bias the interpretation of any comments I make. The point is to be able to have a reasonable discussion without having to resort to insulting groups of players.

I do not enjoy mining, it is tedious, boring and takes a lot of time to get things done. On the flip side it makes good money while fighting inanimate rocks, this is how I choose to play, this is what I do to afford my PvP. I do not have to worry about what fit to use or what ship they are bringing to the fight. It is easy, and casual.

One point that always seems to be missed in these discussions:

YOU CANNOT FIGHT A GANKER PILOT IN HIGH-SEC

Best case scenario,

1) You war'dec the gankers corp or multiple corps. ( your cost )
2) You locate them in a station. ( again your cost )
3) You camp outside station until the gank fleet undocks. ( your time lost )
4) You manage to lock one or two of them up and maybe even warp scram them. ( even with a 10+ fleet it would be hard )
5) You kill one or two ships ( Planned loss on their side )
6) They dock back up and the gank is aborted, all other pilot warp to 0 and dock.

-- or --

A) If you do not get a lock then they proceed to gank their intended target, you have failed.
B) They undock in much bigger ships than yours and kill you quickly so they re-dock and gank anyway.

With the ganker guides and CONCORD manipulation tactics avaliable online it is very hard to nail down a gank pilot in high sec.

Given the above can someone please tell me how you are going to effect their bottom line?

They are not losing any more ships than they planned on losing. While the war'dec is active you are now the primary target and unless you bring much, much more fire power to the fight, you will lose. t best they will simply move to another system ( either alts or pod running ) and work there until you log off.

James 315 nailed it perfectly, pick a group of players who have almost no combat skills, ships or experience and extort them in an area of space that prevents them from effectively fighting back ( No bubbles, CONCORD, etc )

I am all for following CCP's suggestion and moving but what happens when there is no where left to move? All the years of nerf high-sec whining can stop because a singular group bent ( if CCP needed to clarify, I call it bent ) the rules enough to convert high-sec to low.


Give me a way to REALLY fight the gankers and I will use it, until then respect your fellow pilots who are playing the game YOU love.

I do not mean to fight your post but the ganking guides detail exactly how to never fail at a gank.

The scout shows up in a Hulk equipped with a passive target lock and a ship scanner. He can stay far off-ish and the ganks never fail because they know exactly how much DPS to bring to the field to pop you.

I was ganked while actively talking to the New Order in private convo. They decided that I was not to be swayed and ganked me with no bumping attempts first. Oh and I was orbiting an ice chunk at 10km, still never saw the point man.

You can mine in a fleet of 50 and there is nothing you can do to prevent the gank even if you had them all on a war'dec. You have ~10 seconds from them dropping on field to the loss of a ship, that is not enough time to effectively fight them.

If you tank well and sacrifice your yield then you are losing money every cycle that you are not ganked. With them pre-scanning your ship it does not matter if you are a hard target, they will bring as much DPS as needed to take you out.

On miner bumping website the top blog post is how the New Order has started taking out Orca's so what you are flying is not important to them anymore.

Seriously.

Not buying a Permit is like running away from a traffic officer who is trying to give you a speeding ticket.

It just wont end well.

Do the right thing.

You wanna watch out, the ISDs call that evasion of the profanity filter.