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Crime & Punishment

 
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GM Response On Bumping

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Author
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#561 - 2014-09-15 04:45:07 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not trolling...just following up on the earlier post promising to blow freighters up because of my posts here. And the failure to respond to my post soon afterward about why such threat was unconvincing and unlikely to be acted on. An apology would be appropriate of course, not that I harbor much hope....


How is attempting to make someone feel bad for alleged in-game failures any different from the "Can I have your stuff" post you were railing against earlier this page?

Veers Belvar wrote:
Instead of just taking your win and moving on, you come here to rub it in, and try to make him angrier so you can get a further emotional reaction.



EDIT: So that we're clear. I find nothing wrong with calling out in-game failure. You are the one who laid out standards that you were unable to hold to for a full forum page. (Which goes nicely with your pattern of only calling for civility from those who disagree with you.)


Not similar. Pouring fuel on the fire after you hurt someone, they are upset, and say they are quitting the game is not the same as gently ribbing someone who semi-threatened you after getting mildly annoyed at forum posts, and is not especially upset.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#562 - 2014-09-15 05:06:47 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not similar. Pouring fuel on the fire after you hurt someone, they are upset, and say they are quitting the game is not the same as gently ribbing someone who semi-threatened you after getting mildly annoyed at forum posts, and is not especially upset.



Well see there's the problem with your thinking. You quite literally cannot hurt anyone in EVE.

So the two situations are:
1) Gentle ribbing on the forums for an in-game failure
and
2) The exact same thing from someone who said 1) was reprehensible.

Also, since when is promising that you're going to play the game a "threat," semi- or otherwise?

When you thought Leto had failed to fulfill his promise:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Instead of just taking your win and moving on, you come here to rub it in

Your words, Mr Belvar, not mine, characterize your actions.

Your speech and actions are what matter, not your target's state of mind. Harassment is harassment whether your target is traumatized or tickled.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#563 - 2014-09-15 06:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
RubyPorto wrote:



Well see there's the problem with your thinking. You quite literally cannot hurt anyone in EVE.

So the two situations are:
1) Gentle ribbing on the forums for an in-game failure
and
2) The exact same thing from someone who said 1) was reprehensible.

Also, since when is promising that you're going to play the game a "threat," semi- or otherwise?

When you thought Leto had failed to fulfill his promise:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Instead of just taking your win and moving on, you come here to rub it in

Your words, Mr Belvar, not mine, characterize your actions.

Your speech and actions are what matter, not your target's state of mind. Harassment is harassment whether your target is traumatized or tickled.


Ok, don't want to derail this thread - so just a brief response and leave at that.

You certainly can hurt someone psychologically through in game actions. People who invest a lot of time and effort in something are hurt when they lose it, especially to what is often seen as an abusive use of the bumping mechanic. Ribbing someone who is clearly distraught and quitting the game is in no way similar to ribibng someone who is mildly annoyed at some forum posts, and has now threatened to blow up ships in my name. His failing to blow up ships was not a "win" for me. I did not do him any harm in the game, hence I had no "win" to rub in. Not like Cpt Starfox who pinned down a freighter for 50 mins, made a huge ransom demand, and caused the pilot to self destruct, losing billions of isk, and quit the game, as well as destroying all of his remaining assets. Rubbing that in, is just, well, deeply wrong. And harassment does depend on mental state - if you victim would not reasonably feel harassed by the conduct it sure ain't harassment. So yelling at an adult is one thing, yelling at a 4 year old kid quite another, etc...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#564 - 2014-09-15 06:32:33 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Veers Belvar wrote:
You certainly can hurt someone psychologically through in game actions.


Nope. Just like you cannot be said to have hurt someone by playing Chess better than them. No matter how they may feel about the game.

Quote:
And harassment does depend on mental state - if you victim would not reasonably feel harassed by the conduct it sure ain't harassment. So yelling at an adult is one thing, yelling at a 4 year old kid quite another, etc...


So you're defending your hypocrisy by saying "He probably liked it." Great argument.

Here's the TOS and EULA to see if you can find *any* justification for it.


Quote:
often seen as an abusive use of the bumping mechanic


But not by CCP, and guess who's vision matters. Also, nice use of weasel words with "often."

Quote:
Ribbing someone who is clearly distraught and quitting the game is in no way similar to ribibng someone who is mildly annoyed at some forum posts


In other words, it's not harassment if it's aimed at people whose legitimate gameplay choices you disagree with.

The situations are identical. Any useful definition of Harassment cannot possibly hinge on the victim's state of mind. Harassment is Harassment whether the victim is traumatized or tickled, and I'll ask you to find something in the EULA or TOS that says otherwise.

Regardless, neither post is harassment and, if you actually thought it was, you would have reported the post that you found "deeply wrong" rather than propping it up like a soapbox to use in your crusade.
If you were actually worried about derailing the thread, you wouldn't have used the post as a soapbox either, you'd have reported it.

So, back on topic, are you ready to provide any evidence to suggest that there is a high *rate* of suicide ganking, or an argument to suggest that there is somehow a problem with people making up reasons to blow up (or not) ships in a game about precisely that?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#565 - 2014-09-17 10:10:53 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:



Well see there's the problem with your thinking. You quite literally cannot hurt anyone in EVE.

So the two situations are:
1) Gentle ribbing on the forums for an in-game failure
and
2) The exact same thing from someone who said 1) was reprehensible.

Also, since when is promising that you're going to play the game a "threat," semi- or otherwise?

When you thought Leto had failed to fulfill his promise:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Instead of just taking your win and moving on, you come here to rub it in

Your words, Mr Belvar, not mine, characterize your actions.

Your speech and actions are what matter, not your target's state of mind. Harassment is harassment whether your target is traumatized or tickled.


Ok, don't want to derail this thread - so just a brief response and leave at that.

You certainly can hurt someone psychologically through in game actions. People who invest a lot of time and effort in something are hurt when they lose it, especially to what is often seen as an abusive use of the bumping mechanic. Ribbing someone who is clearly distraught and quitting the game is in no way similar to ribibng someone who is mildly annoyed at some forum posts, and has now threatened to blow up ships in my name. His failing to blow up ships was not a "win" for me. I did not do him any harm in the game, hence I had no "win" to rub in. Not like Cpt Starfox who pinned down a freighter for 50 mins, made a huge ransom demand, and caused the pilot to self destruct, losing billions of isk, and quit the game, as well as destroying all of his remaining assets. Rubbing that in, is just, well, deeply wrong. And harassment does depend on mental state - if you victim would not reasonably feel harassed by the conduct it sure ain't harassment. So yelling at an adult is one thing, yelling at a 4 year old kid quite another, etc...


I feel harassed by your posts so please stop, thanks.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Omar Alharazaad
Spectrum Reborn
#566 - 2014-09-17 12:34:22 UTC
Veers. No amount of verbal diarrhea is going to make you right. And to be truthful you have shat an epic amount on the forums in the name of those who can't be bothered to make a serious effort to be prepared, wary, and wise.

Ordinarily I'd say of course that an innocent bear shall be murdered in thy name for the your offenses against HTFU... but honestly with the absolute torrent of wrong-mindedness that's been spewed I can't even quantify just how many should be slain to compensate for your relentless assault of wave after wave of drivel.

All your unceasing retaliations against logic serve to accomplish is to bury any sane and rational debate on the relevant issues at hand beneath a multitude of pages of people explaining to you how you are wrong, mixed in with your refusal to accept the realities of New Eden.

For the love of all that is unholy, stop.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#567 - 2014-09-18 00:54:29 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Veers. No amount of verbal diarrhea is going to make you right. And to be truthful you have shat an epic amount on the forums in the name of those who can't be bothered to make a serious effort to be prepared, wary, and wise.

Ordinarily I'd say of course that an innocent bear shall be murdered in thy name for the your offenses against HTFU... but honestly with the absolute torrent of wrong-mindedness that's been spewed I can't even quantify just how many should be slain to compensate for your relentless assault of wave after wave of drivel.

All your unceasing retaliations against logic serve to accomplish is to bury any sane and rational debate on the relevant issues at hand beneath a multitude of pages of people explaining to you how you are wrong, mixed in with your refusal to accept the realities of New Eden.

For the love of all that is unholy, stop.


Uhmm....your post was....interesting. Obviously I, and many others, continue to feel that the bumping mechanic is being used to wrongfully pin down freighters without appropriate CONCORD response. Calling me a lot of names ain't gonna change that.

As far as you lacking the math skills to figure out how many "carebears" to kill in retaliation, how about instead going and finding 20 PVE oriented new players and taking them on some Level 4 missions to show them the ropes? That would be a lot more helpful and friendly than killing people in some pathetic and lame attempt to affect the conscience of someone as wholly unflappable as myself.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#568 - 2014-09-18 01:20:16 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
continue to feel that the bumping mechanic is being used to wrongfully pin down freighters without appropriate CONCORD response


And yet you continue to refuse to provide a reason why CONCORD should become a proactive, protective service to capsuleers.

Quote:
As far as you lacking the math skills to figure out how many "carebears" to kill in retaliation, how about instead going and finding 20 PVE oriented new players and taking them on some Level 4 missions to show them the ropes? That would be a lot more helpful and friendly than killing people in some pathetic and lame attempt to affect the conscience of someone as wholly unflappable as myself.


So much for your claim that you have no problem with the mechanic. Sad to see you have such trouble understanding the difference between fantasy and reality.

In game actions have no moral consequence, so how can they affect anyone's conscience?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Xune
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#569 - 2014-09-20 18:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Xune
I THink the repeated bumping to keep a player from going somewhere is indead harassment.

Ther are solutions to the bumpers yes, but most involve loosing secrating since they hide in NPC corps while the ganking force is then in ther own corp.


CCP can of course just say this is all fine and dandy. However if it is fine and dandy i would like ccp to intreduce a Remote assist module i can use to increase the mass of a ship lets say by 100X Per module on the targeted ship to be able to HELP people not being tossed around like the small kid getting pushed around by the mentally challenged bully.


Give us Mass-increasing beams so we can make the bumped ships giant ******* rocks those guys can bump ther nose bloody.
Revis Owen
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#570 - 2014-09-21 05:52:22 UTC
Xune wrote:
Give us Mass-increasing beams so we can make the bumped ships giant ******* rocks those guys can bump ther nose bloody.


Why don't you just admit that what you really want, for at least some ships in Eve, is for bumping to be rendered not possible?

It really would require less time and energy for you and those like you to just quit your incrementalism and go straight to petitioning for exactly what you want.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#571 - 2014-09-21 08:02:43 UTC
Xune wrote:
I THink the repeated bumping to keep a player from going somewhere is indead harassment.

Ther are solutions to the bumpers yes, but most involve loosing secrating since they hide in NPC corps while the ganking force is then in ther own corp.


CCP can of course just say this is all fine and dandy. However if it is fine and dandy i would like ccp to intreduce a Remote assist module i can use to increase the mass of a ship lets say by 100X Per module on the targeted ship to be able to HELP people not being tossed around like the small kid getting pushed around by the mentally challenged bully.


Give us Mass-increasing beams so we can make the bumped ships giant ******* rocks those guys can bump ther nose bloody.


There are already remote modules (i.e. webs) that will help a player escape bumpers preventing them from entering warp. If people can't be bothered to use them, what makes you think they will fit and use a "mass magnifier" ?

There are plenty of ways to avoid a gank already, do you think it is the best use of developer time to create yet another one that AFK miners and haulers will be too lazy to use?
Xune
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#572 - 2014-09-21 09:37:05 UTC
Revis Owen wrote:
Xune wrote:
Give us Mass-increasing beams so we can make the bumped ships giant ******* rocks those guys can bump ther nose bloody.


Why don't you just admit that what you really want, for at least some ships in Eve, is for bumping to be rendered not possible?

It really would require less time and energy for you and those like you to just quit your incrementalism and go straight to petitioning for exactly what you want.



Duno how you read this into it but no thats not what i want.

I want a non-agression remote assist tool. Something which increases teamplay to prevent bumping.


Xune
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#573 - 2014-09-21 09:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Xune
Black Pedro wrote:
Xune wrote:
I THink the repeated bumping to keep a player from going somewhere is indead harassment.

Ther are solutions to the bumpers yes, but most involve loosing secrating since they hide in NPC corps while the ganking force is then in ther own corp.


CCP can of course just say this is all fine and dandy. However if it is fine and dandy i would like ccp to intreduce a Remote assist module i can use to increase the mass of a ship lets say by 100X Per module on the targeted ship to be able to HELP people not being tossed around like the small kid getting pushed around by the mentally challenged bully.


Give us Mass-increasing beams so we can make the bumped ships giant ******* rocks those guys can bump ther nose bloody.


There are already remote modules (i.e. webs) that will help a player escape bumpers preventing them from entering warp. If people can't be bothered to use them, what makes you think they will fit and use a "mass magnifier" ?

There are plenty of ways to avoid a gank already, do you think it is the best use of developer time to create yet another one that AFK miners and haulers will be too lazy to use?




Sadly what your stating here is wrong. Web reduces the top speed which makes you go to warp faster. However once some one is bumped a web would not help them at all. Once bnumped thers no module you could use to remote assist some one.


I find it highly funny your keep reffering to afk people when i was clearly stating an active remote assist module which provides teamwork.

I guess provides teamwork is a wonderfull thing to say to justify ganking and bumping but is a horrible abnomitation when used to justify a module that would make bumping take more effort.



Edit:

Allso Webs on a bumping victim requires you to be in there corp or get sec hit. A nother part ofd your nullified argument.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#574 - 2014-09-21 11:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Xune wrote:
Sadly what your stating here is wrong. Web reduces the top speed which makes you go to warp faster. However once some one is bumped a web would not help them at all. Once bnumped thers no module you could use to remote assist some one.


I find it highly funny your keep reffering to afk people when i was clearly stating an active remote assist module which provides teamwork.

I guess provides teamwork is a wonderfull thing to say to justify ganking and bumping but is a horrible abnomitation when used to justify a module that would make bumping take more effort.



Edit:

Allso Webs on a bumping victim requires you to be in there corp or get sec hit. A nother part ofd your nullified argument.


I don't think you fully understand the mechanics involved here. If you are engaging in "teamwork" you can reduce the time for a freighter to enter warp to mere seconds making it extremely difficult, if not impossible for a bumper to prevent the ship from entering warp. Even if they have already started bumping you, webbing a hauler can save them unless the bumpers have so many ships that they are constantly hitting the target every few seconds, which is much more more difficult than hitting it every 10 or 20 seconds that they need to do for an unwebbed freighter.

If you are in not in the same corp, you can avoid a sec status hit by having the hauler and the webbing ship engage in a duel. This is exactly what your proposed module would do - in fact webbing is even better as it reduces the alignment time of the hauler and will make the trip significantly faster.

Do you know what else would happen if you put this module in the game? Gankers would start using it on their bumping ships multiplying the mass of them so high that they would be able to bump targets without the beam on them (which would be essentially all ships as most highsec miners/haulers are unescorted and AFK) much, much further. I'd love to have that beam so I could have an alt use it on my bumping ship and in one shot send a miner hundreds of kms away from an asteroid belt.
Lady Areola Fappington
#575 - 2014-09-21 14:12:53 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:


I don't think you fully understand the mechanics involved here. If you are engaging in "teamwork" you can reduce the time for a freighter to enter warp to mere seconds making it extremely difficult, if not impossible for a bumper to prevent the ship from entering warp. Even if they have already started bumping you, webbing a hauler can save them unless the bumpers have so many ships that they are constantly hitting the target every few seconds, which is much more more difficult than hitting it every 10 or 20 seconds that they need to do for an unwebbed freighter.

If you are in not in the same corp, you can avoid a sec status hit by having the hauler and the webbing ship engage in a duel. This is exactly what your proposed module would do - in fact webbing is even better as it reduces the alignment time of the hauler and will make the trip significantly faster.

Do you know what else would happen if you put this module in the game? Gankers would start using it on their bumping ships multiplying the mass of them so high that they would be able to bump targets without the beam on them (which would be essentially all ships as most highsec miners/haulers are unescorted and AFK) much, much further. I'd love to have that beam so I could have an alt use it on my bumping ship and in one shot send a miner hundreds of kms away from an asteroid belt.




It's something I've often noticed with carebear types, they don't seem to grasp the wider-ranging second and third order effects of the things they request. They see the changes from inside a little box, and don't realise the wider implications.


Take for example, the following. I've seen quite a few requests for a "space anchor", to be used to prevent miners from being bumped. As a ganker, I'd love to see this put in place. Why? Because having my target voluntarily forcing itself into a locked-in immobile position just makes my life that much easier. No need for neutral scouts, just bookmark the anchored miner, bounce around, and go in guns blazing.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#576 - 2014-09-21 14:58:03 UTC
My idea is still the best - for 60 seconds after CONCORD arrives the gank victim can warp off unaffected by bumping, much like a pod can warp off. No direct negative effects, not even 2nd or 3rd order ones. I will be putting up a thread in F&I on it soon. Hopefully we can quickly resolve this bumping malady.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#577 - 2014-09-21 15:02:53 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
It's something I've often noticed with carebear types, they don't seem to grasp the wider-ranging second and third order effects of the things they request. They see the changes from inside a little box, and don't realise the wider implications.
They constantly underestimate their opponents, and their ability to adapt. Any perceived buff to the carebear lifestyle invariably ends up getting used by the very people it was designed to nerf.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#578 - 2014-09-25 00:13:59 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
I don't think you fully understand the mechanics involved here. If you are engaging in "teamwork" you can reduce the time for a freighter to enter warp to mere seconds making it extremely difficult, if not impossible for a bumper to prevent the ship from entering warp. Even if they have already started bumping you, webbing a hauler can save them unless the bumpers have so many ships that they are constantly hitting the target every few seconds


A single webbing alt with about 2 hours of training can put a freighter in to warp in less than 3 seconds, which makes it borderline impossible to bump the ship, & circumstances where it would get bumped are a stretch of the imagination anyway. Webbing a freighter or hauler after a successful bump is a hindrance, since webbing at that point will vastly increase the time it takes to get in to warp.

It's all about knowing how everything actually works.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#579 - 2014-09-28 01:05:03 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
I don't think you fully understand the mechanics involved here. If you are engaging in "teamwork" you can reduce the time for a freighter to enter warp to mere seconds making it extremely difficult, if not impossible for a bumper to prevent the ship from entering warp. Even if they have already started bumping you, webbing a hauler can save them unless the bumpers have so many ships that they are constantly hitting the target every few seconds


A single webbing alt with about 2 hours of training can put a freighter in to warp in less than 3 seconds, which makes it borderline impossible to bump the ship, & circumstances where it would get bumped are a stretch of the imagination anyway. Webbing a freighter or hauler after a successful bump is a hindrance, since webbing at that point will vastly increase the time it takes to get in to warp.

It's all about knowing how everything actually works.



Did you bother reading the forum posts a couple of pages back by the Non-AFK freighter pilot who was bumped for 50 minutes with webber alts, and as a result had to self destruct his ship, biomass, and quit the game?

Enough said.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#580 - 2014-09-28 01:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Veers Belvar wrote:
Did you bother reading the forum posts a couple of pages back by the Non-AFK freighter pilot who was bumped for 50 minutes with webber alts, and as a result had to self destruct his ship, biomass, and quit the game?

Enough said.


Explain, exactly, why you think he "had" to do any of that.


Also, if you had bothered to read, you'd know that quitting-guy only bothered to web his Freighter *after* getting bumped.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon