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Improve faction / officer Guns
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Naomi Anthar
#1 - 2013-01-29 08:11:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
Yup at this very moment spending for example 50kk on gun x 6 to pimp some T3 is atm not only very expensive, but plain dumb. You lose 10% damage from specialization from T2 gun. You lose ability to use T2 ammo. It's lose / lose situation. There is only minor gain in optimal/damage.

Here is what i would love to see:

1. Faction / Officer guns now can use T2 ammo , but only when you got adequate trainings. So you still need to train specializations.

2. Faction / Officer guns now can benefit from specializations.

It wont affect pvp much as ... not really many will afford to run full deadspace/officer mids and lows AND now highs.
It will give some more fun in pimping our pve ships in highs, so it's not more boring as hell.
Sure you can still use such guns for pvp, but you put them at risk of being destroyed/lost as every faction/deadspace/officer module. So you pay extra you get extras.

Either that or ... but that is much worse option.

Reduce PWG and CPU need for those modules. Why they got req as T2's but they don't give T2 bonuses ?

What do you think about that?

Edit. Of course launchers should receive same treatment, why not ?
Naomi Anthar
#2 - 2013-01-30 02:27:18 UTC
bump ... wow i don't believe anyone is happy with state of faction / officer guns. So you think it's fine actually, that noone even considers using anything be it meta or faction/officer guns once he reaches T2 guns ?

So much talking about single modules in low or mid slot, but having generic 8 braindead fit T2 and forget high slots is ok. Wow :D.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-01-30 03:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
The lack of +1 or -1's is more of a why factor.

Those with 4 billion to blow are either carrier ratting in 0.0.


Or they since they have the cash run alt accounts to boost or rep or get creative other ways for pve.

Well that and I if you roll back through the forums about 2 years ago ( iirc)....some gankers bagged themselves a very nice o-fit paladin in empire. Good for lols I guess but a reminder eve is a very cold place. At least 16 bil dropped in the wreck (keyword dropped....that would be the loot that lived to be pcked up, not the whole fit).

Generally people good enough with money for officer gear know at some point a pve'er will get scanned. For this 16 bil gank job, the scanner said I know I ain't got this solo. So he got some help. Wanna say it was around a 10 man job (yes even the tank was o-fit). 16 bil split by 10 peeps....he was not short on people scared to wreck sec status for a bit.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-01-30 03:39:54 UTC
+1

All meta 5+ should count as tech 2 and benefit from spec and t2 ammo.
Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-01-30 05:21:13 UTC
Faction/Officer guns/launchers do seem to be in a sad state. They lack the ability to use T2 ammo (they are T1, after all) and lack extra DPS from the T2 specialization skills.

What I think would make them better: increase their attributes to be better than their T2 equivalents (post-spec skills). That way, they might out DPS T2, or out-track them, or whatever that specific module's shining attribute was. However, the incredible usefulness of T2 ammo would insure that T2 guns/launchers would still have a benefit and reason (other than ISK) to be used.

Just a thought on the subject.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-01-30 07:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinigr Shadowsong
Faction and Officer Turrets/Launcher are not worth using in most cases. This is a bad design. However plain buffing them to be superior over T2 may bring very unfortunate results.

Those weapons will be used mostly for PvE. Replacing weapons with better ones is very different with replacing e.g. hardeners. Increasing DPS => Increasing efficiency => Increasing Isk/h. Therefore Missions, Anomailes, Plexes, Incursions etc. will bring more Isk, drops, LP. Increasing Isk generation means increasing inflation and wild prices.
Undoubtedly if Faction/Officer weapons will become plain better than T2 their pricetags will skyrocket since every ratter will want to have them so it will require even more initial investment to start generating Isks further widening the gap between new players and vets.

Probably most such negative consequences can be avoided if use following pattern:

==============
Faction = has 4-6% dps above T2 (meta 4), may use T2 ammo, do not benefit from Specialization skill. Effectively equals T2 with spec to 2-3, but easier to fit and lower skill requirements if you use T1 ammo
==============
(Should be implemented)
Deadspace = has 8-10% dps above T2 (meta 4), may use T2 ammo, do not benefit from Specialization skill. Effectively equals T2 with spec to 4-5, but easier to fit and lower skill requirements if you use T1 ammo.
==============
Officer = has 10-15% dps above T2 (meta 4), may use T2 ammo, do not benefit from Specialization skill. Effectively slightly better than T2 with spec to 5, easier to fit and lower skill requirements if you use T1 ammo. Price will prevent it from widespread usage.
==============

Then Faction/Deadspace/Officer weapons will be usefull (faster training, opening more fitting options) without breaking economics
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-01-30 12:58:50 UTC
guns are the only case where T2> faction

btw, its not 10%, faction guns do 5% more base DPs than meta4/t2, so by spec 3 (which gives a 1.06 modifier) T2 outdamage

Faction is only remotely viable for lasers, and maybe hybrids, because they use less cap.

I'm actually in favor of spec skills affecting all weapons of that class, T1 or T2.
It wouldn't be too hard to allow faction/officer guns to load T2 ammo if you have the skills (just as with missile launchers, you can mount the missile launcher, but if you dont have FOF skills, you cant load fof missiles)
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-01-30 13:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
sabre906 wrote:
+1

All meta 5+ should count as tech 2 and benefit from spec and t2 ammo.


No, no no no no and no !!


Faction stuff does not require extra training effort and therefore should not be better than player build tools for players playing in a player made content game.

Officer better? -yes, agree.

Faction better? -no

Player build tools should always be better than faction/meta stuff with officer drops exception. This only means that for whatever reason your corporation/alliance/solo wants to change fleet doctrine and you don't have the skills yet or NOT WILLING to train them, you can still use whatever ship effectively.

Making NPC tools better than player build tools is total nonsense in this game claiming to be player made content.

Pirate ships are the example of this nonsense, require the same amount of minerals than their T1 counterpart and offer waaaaaaay better performances.
Many A-B-C types are also way better than player build tools, again it's nonsense for a game claiming to be player made content.

In short, is this a player made content or purplez drop from Ice Crown dragons?

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-01-30 16:04:38 UTC
Faction guns blow nutsacks.


They should be far superior to t2. T2 is as common as herpes. I see no special reason why the mass produced guns should have special abilities the high quality rare parts lack. Especially when faction is better than t2 in nearly every other case.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Naomi Anthar
#10 - 2013-01-30 16:33:34 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
+1

All meta 5+ should count as tech 2 and benefit from spec and t2 ammo.


No, no no no no and no !!


Faction stuff does not require extra training effort and therefore should not be better than player build tools for players playing in a player made content game.

Officer better? -yes, agree.

Faction better? -no

Player build tools should always be better than faction/meta stuff with officer drops exception. This only means that for whatever reason your corporation/alliance/solo wants to change fleet doctrine and you don't have the skills yet or NOT WILLING to train them, you can still use whatever ship effectively.

Making NPC tools better than player build tools is total nonsense in this game claiming to be player made content.

Pirate ships are the example of this nonsense, require the same amount of minerals than their T1 counterpart and offer waaaaaaay better performances.
Many A-B-C types are also way better than player build tools, again it's nonsense for a game claiming to be player made content.

In short, is this a player made content or purplez drop from Ice Crown dragons?



Such enormous amount of ignorance ...
"Faction stuff does not require extra training effort and therefore should not be better than player build tools for players playing in a player made content game." - now read my very first post once again. Where it's obviously stated that you need specialization aka t2 gun training to use t2 ammo , same goes for benefits from specializations. Another thing is ... Wow dude you really have any small idea how it's hard , time , isk consuming to get rack of faction or officer guns ? Btw some faction guns are "player made" in some manner. I mean you build it from base gun and upgrade with lp/isk/tags - it's not like it's dropped by npc - it's not.

I would -1 your post if i could, such amount of misinformation keeps faction/officer guns in shadows forever. Operate with facts not myths...

"Pirate ships are the example of this nonsense, require the same amount of minerals than their T1 counterpart and offer waaaaaaay better performances.
Many A-B-C types are also way better than player build tools, again it's nonsense for a game claiming to be player made content." - now bring me 10 bpcs of pirate faction battleships. If that is so easy. Or bring me 10 pithum A - type invus. Sure that is as easy gettign 10 Tech 2 invus.

"Officer better? -yes, agree.

Faction better? -no"

How is that ? Faction is better than meta 2 when it goes every single other module. Why now in high slots it should be diffrent story ? Hell even in high slots for example neuts,nos are better than t2. Give me reason for faction hate ?
Naomi Anthar
#11 - 2013-02-01 00:51:50 UTC
bump , i won't let this topic die so easily. This is very important and very easy to fix issue. Before anyone will say it's good as it is. Go check lp store and price for faction guns.

Fitting is really sometimes fun and skill, but when there is obviously nothing else you can fit but T2 weapon then there is something wrong.
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Bear Works
#12 - 2013-02-03 10:10:09 UTC
No, officer guns already do a shitton more dps than regular TII's, no need for them to be able to use specialised ammunition.
Also, putting you down on my list, you obviously like your shinies :3
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-02-03 10:28:27 UTC
If you think Faction Guns are bad.....you should take a peek at Faction Armor Plates...........
Naomi Anthar
#14 - 2013-02-03 11:19:14 UTC
Arden Elenduil wrote:
No, officer guns already do a shitton more dps than regular TII's, no need for them to be able to use specialised ammunition.
Also, putting you down on my list, you obviously like your shinies :3


I completly disagree , even officer guns with mindblowing damage modifier are worse than T2. Not being able to use for example scorch for pulse laser is like ... terrible drawback. But not only that also no 10% bonus to damage from specialization. Won't even mention that they cost like 100 or more T2 guns.

This topic is mostly about faction guns (because officer are rare and only exist at battleship level, tho sure they need improvement too). But back to topic : they are worse than T2 guns and not slightly. It's huge difference. And if you see stuff with meta 5 being MUCH MUCH stronger than meta 8 or more then there is something wrong.

As for likeing my shinies... you would be surprised. All faction guns i posses are now in hangar and here is list of em :
1. True Sansha Focused Medium Pulser laser x 1
2. True Sansha dual light beam laser x 1

I found them :D. I see no reason to buy faction guns, i can afford them i admit. Many can afford, but almost noone wants. That is major problem . And people refuse to buy them not because their are expensive . They are just plain bad :<.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-02-15 04:21:43 UTC
This should be part of next round of balancing.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-02-15 04:45:56 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
+1

All meta 5+ should count as tech 2 and benefit from spec and t2 ammo.


pretty much always thought this

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#17 - 2013-02-15 04:50:42 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
50kk


Did you use "kk" to mean "mils" or "million" ??
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#18 - 2013-02-15 08:17:32 UTC
Agreed, either let them use T2 ammo, or just make them better than t2 even with t1 ammo (preferred, but either works). It's pretty sad when the ideal weaponry is plain T2, when for every other module faction is superior.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#19 - 2013-02-15 08:41:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I'm not sure I'm completely on board with the "Let faction guns use T2 ammo" bit, but I do think that they should be better than T2 guns when firing T1 ammo. Maybe faction ammo could get some weird bonus (and here's where the coding gets difficult) that allows it to do extra damage when fired from a matching faction gun/launcher. CN missiles/CN launchers, FN ammo from FN hybrids, Blood crystals from Blood lasers, etc.

As far as the ISK/hr is concerned, missions and all non-Incursion PvE have already been nerfed into the ground compared to where they used to be. How do all you PvPers expect to make any money on kills if you don't let anyone have money in the first place? Not all of us have moons to leech from.
Sedstr
#20 - 2013-02-15 09:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Sedstr
Rare items that officer/faction rats drop should be better than T2, simple as that.
I would imagine that faction/officer mods would be based on simply the best technology based on lore.
Why would an officer fly around belts solo if he wasn't using better than average equipment.

The value of the mod should be in ratio with the availability via game mechanics. Its ISK value on the market is largely irrelevant.

...
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