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CCP... The Simple Solution to the NPC Corp Issue
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#281 - 2013-01-30 01:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Would DayZ be improved if there was a flag players could pick that would make them vulnerable to zombies only?
They just want to farm zombie loot all day. The devs should respect their valuable PvE dollar.
Of course not. It would actively diminish the game. So it is with NPC corps and EVE.


Didnt day or war Z or whatever get like a 10/100 on meta critic?
...

I think you are thinking of War Z. From what I recall Day Z got genuinely positive reviews.

Yeah, War Z was panned as a slapdash clone of Day Z. The two aren't interchangeable

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/25/eve-online-devs-on-dayz-elder-scrolls-online-and-whatd-make-them-quit-the-games-industry/

Nova Fox wrote:

Also

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:DUST_514_NPC_Corporations

MORE NPC CORPS

I wonder if members of those DUST corporations will feel entitled to not be shot at in game.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#282 - 2013-01-30 01:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Goonswarm's is 15%, player average is 10%.


Well I think 11% for high sec immunity is a pretty good taxation deal.
Indeed, it's a powerful disincentive to join player-owned corps and engage in emergent content. That's why NPC corps need to go.


your player corp isn't providing any incentive to join as your tax rate in uncompetitive.

No amount of player-owned corp tax rate confers wardec immunity.
Remove the wardec immunity for true competition to take place, problem solved.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2013-01-30 01:47:13 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Glad to hear it. For NPC corp players who genuinely value being a lone agent and individual actor, and not merely take advantage of unbalanced mechanics, the changes I endorse would effect them little. Making NPC corp members individually deccable merely makes the advantages and disadvantages of solo vs. team play a true question of gamestyle instead of being heavily incentivized by game mechanics to head in one direction.

Given the number of characters in player corps it would seem that group play already has heavy incentives. Making NPC corp characters individually deccable just leaves those who don't utilize activities requiring a corp to further feel the influence of other groups in highsec. Basically there would be no incentive to solo save individual inclination and paranoia. Both of these don't seem like they'd leave their respective players enjoying any more interaction with the greater world.

Though, all things said even if this does happen or something similar and wardec mechanics are solidified to prevent evasion, Alt'mains are an awesome thing to have.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#284 - 2013-01-30 01:54:21 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
I am not a single entity so I cannot be attacked like one nor do I need the protection of a corp because of that. this is why removing npc corps is just futile. I'll simply change my playstyle and you still don't have highsec war targets. I don't even have to set foot in highsec if I don't want to. I don't need to undock I can jump clone all over the place and contract everything. I can log out in space. i can go AFK cloaky. i could go on but hopefully the futility of this wish is now clear. we will adapt and let the game shape our decisions and playstyle.


Using jumpclones and afk cloaking and logging in space are ways to avoid confrontation, but they do NOT guarantee your safety. They're methods of avoidance.

NPC corp membership means you can do whatever you want, because the ONLY way someone can engage you in combat in highsec is with a gank.

Huge difference there.


to my playstyle yes, to yours no. you will still find me unavailable to be pew pewed. I will simply change my style to thwart your wardec.

You seem insistent on this idea that I'm trying to compel you to allow me to shoot you. I'm not. In fact, anyone who is able to continue operating while under the threat of a wardec deserve praise for their ability to adapt. Again: I don't want to force you to fight. I want to force you to react.

This is all about the fact that NPC corp characters are able to affect the market without any penalty while being immune to wardecs. Their playstyle impacts mine, and then they complain when I ask for the ability to impact theirs.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#285 - 2013-01-30 02:02:58 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Glad to hear it. For NPC corp players who genuinely value being a lone agent and individual actor, and not merely take advantage of unbalanced mechanics, the changes I endorse would effect them little. Making NPC corp members individually deccable merely makes the advantages and disadvantages of solo vs. team play a true question of gamestyle instead of being heavily incentivized by game mechanics to head in one direction.

Given the number of characters in player corps it would seem that group play already has heavy incentives. Making NPC corp characters individually deccable just leaves those who don't utilize activities requiring a corp to further feel the influence of other groups in highsec. Basically there would be no incentive to solo save individual inclination and paranoia. Both of these don't seem like they'd leave their respective players enjoying any more interaction with the greater world.

Though, all things said even if this does happen or something similar and wardec mechanics are solidified to prevent evasion, Alt'mains are an awesome thing to have.

That's a bit of an ironic stance to take considering I was just replying to an NPC corp member who states that the average player corp tax rate does not offer sufficient compensation compared to wardec immunity, and here's you claiming that the benefits of player corp membership are so overwhelmingly evident that solo play needs ironclad incentives to give it any merit whatsoever. And before you both Mayhaw saying the mechanics behind NPC corps are irrelevant because it's being a lone wolf is what counts. Total autonomy is its own reward.

Of the three, i find Mayhaw's stance easiest to relate to. You seem to think highsec players interacting with each other (in an MMO no less) is a bad thing.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#286 - 2013-01-30 02:12:18 UTC
Aether Serval wrote:
Retribution, notable for the crime watch changes the decimated hi sec mission griefing and made acts like can flipping some npc corp member flag you as free for all.

Decimated mission griefing?

I do it more now than ever before. Retribution made it fun, especially considering how many carebears out there have NO idea how aggression works, even with the new idiot-friendly system.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#287 - 2013-01-30 02:19:25 UTC
I wasn't aware that NPC corps were a problem. ??
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#288 - 2013-01-30 02:20:28 UTC
Wow. This thread has been busy.

To sum up a lot of what I'm reading here, there are quite a few NPC corp carebears insisting that their way of playing Eve is legitimate and they should be left alone to influence the market how they see fit while the rest of us are unable to influence their ability to conduct their carebear activities without expensive suicide ganks.

Once again: if you can opt out of combat, I should have the right to opt out of the market and get all my items spawned on an NPC market at fixed prices. I don't want to buy stuff made from your ore. Let me play Eve my way.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2013-01-30 02:21:01 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Glad to hear it. For NPC corp players who genuinely value being a lone agent and individual actor, and not merely take advantage of unbalanced mechanics, the changes I endorse would effect them little. Making NPC corp members individually deccable merely makes the advantages and disadvantages of solo vs. team play a true question of gamestyle instead of being heavily incentivized by game mechanics to head in one direction.

Given the number of characters in player corps it would seem that group play already has heavy incentives. Making NPC corp characters individually deccable just leaves those who don't utilize activities requiring a corp to further feel the influence of other groups in highsec. Basically there would be no incentive to solo save individual inclination and paranoia. Both of these don't seem like they'd leave their respective players enjoying any more interaction with the greater world.

Though, all things said even if this does happen or something similar and wardec mechanics are solidified to prevent evasion, Alt'mains are an awesome thing to have.

That's a bit of an ironic stance to take considering I was just replying to an NPC corp member who states that the average player corp tax rate does not offer sufficient compensation compared to wardec immunity, and here's you claiming that the benefits of player corp membership are so overwhelmingly evident that solo play needs ironclad incentives to give it any merit whatsoever. And before you both Mayhaw saying the mechanics behind NPC corps are irrelevant because it's being a lone wolf is what counts. Total autonomy is its own reward.

Of the three, i find Mayhaw's stance easiest to relate to. You seem to think highsec players interacting with each other (in an MMO no less) is a bad thing.

Your thinking about my stance is wrong.

To be specific, while it's up to the game designers to promote interaction it's up to a player to decide the type of interaction they want and what they are willing to sacrifice for it or do to avoid it. Right now there is an option which does cause some sacrifices to be made, but admittedly in different ways across different activities, and leaves some activities unpenalized. You are right in that this is wrong and needs corrected.

That aside, my post was addressing the statement you made that there was an obvious direction for a player to take in the direction of solo vs team and attributing NPC corp membership to that.
Aether Serval
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#290 - 2013-01-30 02:23:07 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Aether Serval wrote:
Retribution, notable for the crime watch changes the decimated hi sec mission griefing and made acts like can flipping some npc corp member flag you as free for all.

Decimated mission griefing?

I do it more now than ever before. Retribution made it fun, especially considering how many carebears out there have NO idea how aggression works, even with the new idiot-friendly system.


Really I thought the whole safety system ruined the bear baiting, suppose if they are that dumb guess they deserve it.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#291 - 2013-01-30 02:23:40 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
I wasn't aware that NPC corps were a problem. ??

They aren't, so long as you don't mind NPC freighters full of goods built from ore mined by NPC exhumers being sold to NPC missioners, all of them influencing the market while being immune to any attempt at interference short of a suicide gank.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#292 - 2013-01-30 02:25:17 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Aether Serval wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Aether Serval wrote:
Retribution, notable for the crime watch changes the decimated hi sec mission griefing and made acts like can flipping some npc corp member flag you as free for all.

Decimated mission griefing?

I do it more now than ever before. Retribution made it fun, especially considering how many carebears out there have NO idea how aggression works, even with the new idiot-friendly system.


Really I thought the whole safety system ruined the bear baiting, suppose if they are that dumb guess they deserve it.

You have to disengage your safeties to become a suspect, not to shoot one. (although I've seen multiple hilarious instances of people turning off their safeties to shoot a former suspect whose timer has expired...concord doesn't give you a pass for stupidity)

It's remarkable how many of them think that green dot means we can't shoot back. They should really READ THE DOCUMENTATION.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2013-01-30 02:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Wow. This thread has been busy.

To sum up a lot of what I'm reading here, there are quite a few NPC corp carebears insisting that their way of playing Eve is legitimate and they should be left alone to influence the market how they see fit while the rest of us are unable to influence their ability to conduct their carebear activities without expensive suicide ganks.

Once again: if you can opt out of combat, I should have the right to opt out of the market and get all my items spawned on an NPC market at fixed prices. I don't want to buy stuff made from your ore. Let me play Eve my way.

Technically, our opt out of the wardec mechanic can be simulated by allowing you to sell or buy on the market. You can still make anything on your own and can take from others using whatever means you are allowed, but you can neither be an "aggressor" nor be "aggressed" in market warfare.

But there should be some additional penalty for market activities of NPC corps. As of now only NPC rewards are taxed.

Edit: Though thinking about it if NPC corp characters are so prolific in market/industrial activities, wouldn't you, as someone who uses the market, be negatively affected by them raising prices due to penalties or increased dangers?
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#294 - 2013-01-30 02:26:48 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
You seem insistent on this idea that I'm trying to compel you to allow me to shoot you. I'm not. In fact, anyone who is able to continue operating while under the threat of a wardec deserve praise for their ability to adapt. Again: I don't want to force you to fight. I want to force you to react.

This is all about the fact that NPC corp characters are able to affect the market without any penalty while being immune to wardecs. Their playstyle impacts mine, and then they complain when I ask for the ability to impact theirs.


I'm not complaining, i'm just pointing out how futile it is to change this. I can learn corporate management in 8m. if it costs me a couple of million to set up a corp I'll tear it down in a new york minute and you might as well have bountied me. this is the reaction you want? 50M down the tubes and I'm laughing at you.

forums.  serious business.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#295 - 2013-01-30 02:28:28 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
But then I wouldn't be able to bump miners as easily because people would be coming after my bumping fit mach Sad


Sorry, PB, but no one really cares about your bumping. If they are real miners, they are not AFK. If not real miners . . . . ??
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#296 - 2013-01-30 02:32:47 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
yeah like if npc corps make you immune to wardecs, joining a pc corp one ups that and not only leaves you immune to wardecs but also has random factions declare war on corps you don't like. if you can get 100% refine rate as an npc corp poster using npc stations, joining a player corp gives you beyond 100% refining efficiency so you can just manufacture and reprocess your own stuff for surplus. let's not go into crazy talk like making npc corps unappealing

or just ban npc corps


I think you have had a little bit too much to drink, or smoke. Try again tomorrow. Sounds like an interesting concept.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#297 - 2013-01-30 02:35:04 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
Make boosting part of a corp.
On anyone else it counts as an aggression act.
Suddenly the solo is back and no more unengagable booster alts.


I free boost a lot. People appreciate it.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#298 - 2013-01-30 02:35:08 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Goonswarm's is 15%, player average is 10%.


Well I think 11% for high sec immunity is a pretty good taxation deal.
Indeed, it's a powerful disincentive to join player-owned corps and engage in emergent content. That's why NPC corps need to go.


your player corp isn't providing any incentive to join as your tax rate in uncompetitive.

No amount of player-owned corp tax rate confers wardec immunity.
Remove the wardec immunity for true competition to take place, problem solved.


no because now I'm in a 0% tax rate solo corp which I'll pull down everytime you dec me, as many people have already said. it is no solution whatsoever. I would do this anyway if i were not a miner but there is no incentive as i do not pay tax for that activity.

forums.  serious business.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#299 - 2013-01-30 02:37:12 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
yeah like if npc corps make you immune to wardecs, joining a pc corp one ups that and not only leaves you immune to wardecs but also has random factions declare war on corps you don't like. if you can get 100% refine rate as an npc corp poster using npc stations, joining a player corp gives you beyond 100% refining efficiency so you can just manufacture and reprocess your own stuff for surplus. let's not go into crazy talk like making npc corps unappealing

or just ban npc corps


I think you have had a little bit too much to drink, or smoke. Try again tomorrow. Sounds like an interesting concept.

I'll use smaller words next time.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#300 - 2013-01-30 02:38:00 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Diablo Ex wrote:
The simple solution to the High Sec problem of NPC Corps is pretty obvious to me, and implementing this will add content, give greater meaning to character racial choices, and overall improve the Storyline of EvE Online.

Make the NPC Corps an active part of the Faction War system. If you don't want to be an Economical or Political Faction War targetable asset, then you can always form your own corporation. Seriously, only the Training Academys and Schools should be neutral and protected. Everything else should rightfully be either a player owned corp, or a part of the Ruling Faction of their area of High Sec. Honestly, if you don't want to be involved in EvE Online just go find another game....

I know I can hear the trolls and carebears already lining up to trash this idea, but hey this is what happens in GD.

.


Well there are already FW NPC corps.

Well here is the deal. People will either stay in NPC corps or they will create throw away 1 man corps which they will leave when they are war dec'd.

You could either raise taxes on NPC corps or make it impossible to leave your corp for 72 hours or something, but that will probaly result in players just docking up and then quitting because they are bored ship spinning in station.

The truth is that these incentives do not make people want to join other corps.

The reason people don't want to join corps with other people is pretty much corp theft and awoxing.

Remove that and people might want to join larger corps.

If you don't want to change that don't expect people to ever leave NPC corps and leave it at status quo.

I mean NPC corp people aren't hurting you and touching you in the bad place.

If they are you can still gank them if you put your mind to it. Get to it.


Except for the last line, I agree wit you 100%.