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How to fix the PVE experience for Mission Runners and retain your unhappy players

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Spaminator
Commerce Trade Federation Corporation
#1 - 2013-01-27 04:23:08 UTC
"Me been playing EVE missions long time."

I respect the development team's efforts to raise the sophistication (have to think a bit) and intensity level (have to adapt to aggro) of mission environments.

The stated purpose of these changes has been to more closely align missions with PVP experiences... namely: adrenaline rushes, 'pucker time', 'ooo sh*t I didn't see that coming', a hilarious sense of achievement, dealing with the unexpected, variety and virtual NPC taunting.

The attempt involved making the E War more challenging. The result: just made alotta carebears and pirate alts angry.

Now the developers are considering dropping the number of targets to make the E War a bit more do-able.

I have a different suggestion:
Stop trying to fix the old mission structure that you already know is broke.

Alternative: Just randomize the content of the encounters a bit more. I would love to encounter the unexpected.

How you ask? (Remember, I am deluding myself... goading really... into thinking someone will read this and agree).

1) Vary the number and positions of ships encountered much more dramatically. I understand that this will make existing 'mission guides' nearly obsolete. Too bad.

2) Make the NPCs sometimes do odd things. (Like act afk for a few tics, select a random target but not all the time, play defensively, spew random taunting nonsense like real pirates, warp out, orbit the player at the wrong radius, randomly summon help, etc.).

3) Randomize landmarks and buildings but still retain the theme of the mission. (Produces a cheap eye candy reaction).

4) Randomize damage types.

5) Randomize NPC tanking somewhat. The player should begin a mission with some idea of what to expect here, but its way too damn predictable.

6) Place the warp launchers in odd spots.

7) Randomly place a 'welcoming committee' of aggressive ships (not too overpowered for the mission level) at the warp in location.



You get the idea...

-Spaminator
Ildryn
IDLE INTENTIONS
#2 - 2013-01-27 05:27:50 UTC
Sounds great.
Kean Vernius
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-01-27 18:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kean Vernius
These are all great points.

Missions have really become impossible lately as CCP has kept trying to slap a bandage on the hemmoraging mess that is mission mechanics.

PvE content is supposed to be challenging, interactive, and fun for both the single player and the group of friends who mission together.

Well:
1) Yes the missions are challenging, but in terms of always being out of range of your target and cannot get back into range. (battleship traveling +2.5km/s? Really?) Rats starting 100km+ from wher you warp in. (good luck Amarr laser boats) Constant targeting jamming so that you cant even shoot once in 20 minutes.
2) Interactive?? Not really, Just follow the guides out there and you can pretty much AFK these missions.
3) Drone missions are also just about worthless to run. Way to nerf into the ground
4) Single players running a mission? Not likely to happen with a L4 mission unless you have 3 hours to kill or have spent crazy ISK fitting out your ship, and then it is too easy.
5) How about making it so that missions escalate in terms of difficulty depending on how many players are in there in the same fleet? That way corporations can have mission running nights without having to downgrade to cruisers to even contribute.


Kean
Ildryn
IDLE INTENTIONS
#4 - 2013-01-27 18:11:46 UTC
Kean Vernius wrote:
These are all great points.

Missions have really become impossible lately as CCP has kept trying to slap a bandage on the hemmoraging mess that is mission mechanics.

PvE content is supposed to be challenging, interactive, and fun for both the single player and the group of friends who mission together.

Well:
1) Yes the missions are challenging, but in terms of always being out of range of your target and cannot get back into range. (battleship traveling +2.5km/s? Really?) Rats starting 100km+ from wher you warp in. (good luck Amarr laser boats) Constant targeting jamming so that you cant even shoot once in 20 minutes.
2) Interactive?? Not really, Just follow the guides out there and you can pretty much AFK these missions.
3) Drone missions are also just about worthless to run. Way to nerf into the ground
4) Single players running a mission? Not likely to happen with a L4 mission unless you have 3 hours to kill or have spent crazy ISK fitting out your ship, and then it is too easy.
5) How about making it so that missions escalate in terms of difficulty depending on how many players are in there in the same fleet? That way corporations can have mission running nights without having to downgrade to cruisers to even contribute.


Kean


This dude is stupid.
Have not ran into a mission i could not do solo.
That's also without warping out and without alts.
Lrn2EVE
Leetha Layne
#5 - 2013-01-27 18:30:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Leetha Layne
Ildryn wrote:
Kean Vernius wrote:
These are all great points.

Missions have really become impossible lately as CCP has kept trying to slap a bandage on the hemmoraging mess that is mission mechanics.

PvE content is supposed to be challenging, interactive, and fun for both the single player and the group of friends who mission together.

Well:
1) Yes the missions are challenging, but in terms of always being out of range of your target and cannot get back into range. (battleship traveling +2.5km/s? Really?) Rats starting 100km+ from wher you warp in. (good luck Amarr laser boats) Constant targeting jamming so that you cant even shoot once in 20 minutes.
2) Interactive?? Not really, Just follow the guides out there and you can pretty much AFK these missions.
3) Drone missions are also just about worthless to run. Way to nerf into the ground
4) Single players running a mission? Not likely to happen with a L4 mission unless you have 3 hours to kill or have spent crazy ISK fitting out your ship, and then it is too easy.
5) How about making it so that missions escalate in terms of difficulty depending on how many players are in there in the same fleet? That way corporations can have mission running nights without having to downgrade to cruisers to even contribute.


Kean


This dude is stupid.
Have not ran into a mission i could not do solo.
That's also without warping out and without alts.
Lrn2EVE




QFT


3 hours for a L4???????


That speaks volumes.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-01-27 18:45:49 UTC
last time i spent three hours in a mission i had fallen asleep on a drone domi.
t2 fit so i dunno if that fits into the "or have spent crazy ISK fitting out your ship," part but i guess everything is all relative.

im gonna guess he flys a shield tanked, autocannon abaddon.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Spaminator
Commerce Trade Federation Corporation
#7 - 2013-01-27 19:14:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Spaminator
Seems that even missions in a Golem take longer than they used to.


Here is a recent dev post on the state of mission running:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2462718#post2462718
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-01-27 21:16:20 UTC
Leetha Layne wrote:
Ildryn wrote:
Kean Vernius wrote:
These are all great points.

Missions have really become impossible lately as CCP has kept trying to slap a bandage on the hemmoraging mess that is mission mechanics.

PvE content is supposed to be challenging, interactive, and fun for both the single player and the group of friends who mission together.

Well:
1) Yes the missions are challenging, but in terms of always being out of range of your target and cannot get back into range. (battleship traveling +2.5km/s? Really?) Rats starting 100km+ from wher you warp in. (good luck Amarr laser boats) Constant targeting jamming so that you cant even shoot once in 20 minutes.
2) Interactive?? Not really, Just follow the guides out there and you can pretty much AFK these missions.
3) Drone missions are also just about worthless to run. Way to nerf into the ground
4) Single players running a mission? Not likely to happen with a L4 mission unless you have 3 hours to kill or have spent crazy ISK fitting out your ship, and then it is too easy.
5) How about making it so that missions escalate in terms of difficulty depending on how many players are in there in the same fleet? That way corporations can have mission running nights without having to downgrade to cruisers to even contribute.


Kean


This dude is stupid.
Have not ran into a mission i could not do solo.
That's also without warping out and without alts.
Lrn2EVE




QFT


3 hours for a L4???????


That speaks volumes.



Kusum Fawn wrote:
last time i spent three hours in a mission i had fallen asleep on a drone domi.
t2 fit so i dunno if that fits into the "or have spent crazy ISK fitting out your ship," part but i guess everything is all relative.

im gonna guess he flys a shield tanked, autocannon abaddon.


I'm gonna say you people obviously don't run missions due to the nonsense you keep spouting. A lot of the higher level missions take hours to complete, even with pimped out ship fits and high skill level, especially the level 4 Epic Arcs. Also if you bothered to run the Caldari Epic Arc, you'd know that the very last mission makes Gunships obsolete due to the Perma-jam done by NPC's.

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of seeing wanna be PvP's constantly post about how missions are broken. What's broken is wanna-be PvP's doing mission invasions trying to gank mission runners which backfires on them due to new NPC AI switching targets and attacking the undertanked PvP ship. Lrn2EVE and you won't have that problem.

The only broken aspect of missions is the overpowered NPC EWAR mechanic which drastically needs to be reduced. The amount of mission payment / bonus rewards could be increased to match the ever rising excessively high market prices. The amount of NPC's in the missions, their bounty amounts and locations within the sites are fine.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldn’t necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions.


Exactly.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-01-27 21:23:17 UTC
In general, mission duration is inversely proportional to the level of ship pimpage.

L4s, back in the day *did* take me too long - because I adhere to the old eve tenent - don't fly what you can't replace.

Feels like these days everyone is zipping around in deadspace Machs...
goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#10 - 2013-01-27 22:15:12 UTC
The LVL 4 epic arcs are a totally different animal than the LVL 4 missions. I solo between 4 to 6 LVL4 missions an hour, and I recentlly completed the caldari epic arc (the whole Arc) in about 8 hours.

And yes I dual box or bring a freind on the last steps of the ARC's to make them easier.

As for the OP I think some surprises would be nice in the standard mission grind, but i would prefer a new mission agent with a set of missions based more on Escalations than todays Missions. Keep what was working, but add something not easy or recordable, for the Toons that have mastered LVL 4's (Possiblly a gate that only allows one ship in, till the room is cleared)

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-01-27 23:06:35 UTC
I dunno I think he is onto something here. Random ships would be very easy to code and implement and give a lot more fun to missions. Missions having only one type of NPC is super boring. How about a mission where you get pounded by explosive damage then a wave of em damage? So much for using cookie cutter specific hardeners.

Even a simple thing such as having mission npcs actually spawn within their optimal range of you and having more enemy ships tackle would change missions drastically for the better.

But I think the OP is going to learn from this thread that people just want to farm the already crazy easy level 4 missions so they can afford an officer tengu to do more missions...
Rutuli
Rizoma records
#12 - 2013-01-28 00:41:35 UTC
what about stop messing with ppl income? making missions and standard ai harder slows down pvp funds for normal players, add new stuff if you wanna make a challenge for pve, like wh or incursions
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-01-28 01:01:42 UTC
Spaminator wrote:
"Me been playing EVE missions long time."

I respect the development team's efforts to raise the sophistication (have to think a bit) and intensity level (have to adapt to aggro) of mission environments.

The stated purpose of these changes has been to more closely align missions with PVP experiences... namely: adrenaline rushes, 'pucker time', 'ooo sh*t I didn't see that coming', a hilarious sense of achievement, dealing with the unexpected, variety and virtual NPC taunting.

The attempt involved making the E War more challenging. The result: just made alotta carebears and pirate alts angry.

Now the developers are considering dropping the number of targets to make the E War a bit more do-able.

I have a different suggestion:
Stop trying to fix the old mission structure that you already know is broke.

Alternative: Just randomize the content of the encounters a bit more. I would love to encounter the unexpected.

How you ask? (Remember, I am deluding myself... goading really... into thinking someone will read this and agree).

1) Vary the number and positions of ships encountered much more dramatically. I understand that this will make existing 'mission guides' nearly obsolete. Too bad.

2) Make the NPCs sometimes do odd things. (Like act afk for a few tics, select a random target but not all the time, play defensively, spew random taunting nonsense like real pirates, warp out, orbit the player at the wrong radius, randomly summon help, etc.).

3) Randomize landmarks and buildings but still retain the theme of the mission. (Produces a cheap eye candy reaction).

4) Randomize damage types.

5) Randomize NPC tanking somewhat. The player should begin a mission with some idea of what to expect here, but its way too damn predictable.

6) Place the warp launchers in odd spots.

7) Randomly place a 'welcoming committee' of aggressive ships (not too overpowered for the mission level) at the warp in location.



You get the idea...

-Spaminator


sounds like fun
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-01-28 09:10:36 UTC
Spaminator wrote:
"Me been playing EVE missions long time."

I respect the development team's efforts to raise the sophistication (have to think a bit) and intensity level (have to adapt to aggro) of mission environments.

The stated purpose of these changes has been to more closely align missions with PVP experiences... namely: adrenaline rushes, 'pucker time', 'ooo sh*t I didn't see that coming', a hilarious sense of achievement, dealing with the unexpected, variety and virtual NPC taunting.

The attempt involved making the E War more challenging. The result: just made alotta carebears and pirate alts angry.

Now the developers are considering dropping the number of targets to make the E War a bit more do-able.

I have a different suggestion:
Stop trying to fix the old mission structure that you already know is broke.

Alternative: Just randomize the content of the encounters a bit more. I would love to encounter the unexpected.

How you ask? (Remember, I am deluding myself... goading really... into thinking someone will read this and agree).

1) Vary the number and positions of ships encountered much more dramatically. I understand that this will make existing 'mission guides' nearly obsolete. Too bad.

2) Make the NPCs sometimes do odd things. (Like act afk for a few tics, select a random target but not all the time, play defensively, spew random taunting nonsense like real pirates, warp out, orbit the player at the wrong radius, randomly summon help, etc.).

3) Randomize landmarks and buildings but still retain the theme of the mission. (Produces a cheap eye candy reaction).

4) Randomize damage types.

5) Randomize NPC tanking somewhat. The player should begin a mission with some idea of what to expect here, but its way too damn predictable.

6) Place the warp launchers in odd spots.

7) Randomly place a 'welcoming committee' of aggressive ships (not too overpowered for the mission level) at the warp in location.



You get the idea...

-Spaminator


several problems:
1. whenever you "randomize" the positions of things in space (2d or 3d), you always have to invest significant manhours to ensure that it still looks nice and there are no potential dead ends (like a warpgate inside a station or large asteroid etc.)

2. there are hundreds of missions out there already. if you try to overhaul all of them, you are not only looking at another tremendous time sink, you are also bound to break several of them without the testers noticing which will result in carebear tears, stress, hotfixes etc.

3. with missions being the primary source of ISK and LP items, any major change to the system eill inevitably stress the markets and cause major shitstorms, potentially even a second summer of rage. i mean, just look at the people you represent: CCP pimps the NPCs by a shadow of a hair and makes them go for drones and suddenly the world is ending and missioners' heads explode. and yet these are paying customers and CCP cannot afford to lose them.

TL;DR good idea but risky and not worth the effort.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Zaq Phelps
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-01-29 12:26:08 UTC
Unfortunately, until CCP makes AI that is just I, NPC's will always be predicable. They tried to add I into missions with FW, but they still can't get it quite right. No matter the complexity of the AI, it will always be plannable. No matter the variation of spawn, it will always be plannable. No matter how intelligent your artificial intelligence is... it will always be artificial.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#16 - 2013-01-29 12:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
In my opinion main problem with PVE is it's predictability. Be that regular missions or plexes you know exactly how to fit to beat it. No mystery, no surprises and no excitement. It is all about grind. Either you grind against clock (ISK/hr) or against RND (exploration). Even leet wh Sleepers are not really dangerous because you know exactly what to bring to just reap blue loot out of them in most efficient manner.

But to be honest it is a problem in every game. PVE gets investigated and described in details within days or weeks and from this point it becomes boring.

On the other hand PVE in Eve is basically means to the end which is getting funds for other things. Hoarding ISK and doing nothing with those funds except maybe pimping your ships to hoard even more ISK seems like a vicious and meaningless circle. At least in single player game you can see nice "You won" screen, in Eve nobody really cares until you end up on somebody's killboard as nice shiny trophy. And even that it's only for a moment because next gank magnet is already undocked and ready to be harvested.

Edit:

I just noticed guy talking about L4 taking 3 hrs and my god it has to suck to be that guy. T2 fitted mael does most of L4s under 20-30 minutes and this is already quite a stretch. You either trolling or are just terrible. Either way PVE is not a problem here and there is no patch that can help you.

Invalid signature format
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-01-29 14:49:45 UTC
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Wouldn't that mean everyone would fit an omni tank? Maybe if majority stick to faction damage types with a few that can surprise you
5) Yes (^at least you can change ammo type mid combat unlike tank)
6) Yes
7) Yes

Agree with 6.5 points.
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-01-29 14:51:40 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:


several problems:
1. whenever you "randomize" the positions of things in space (2d or 3d), you always have to invest significant manhours to ensure that it still looks nice and there are no potential dead ends (like a warpgate inside a station or large asteroid etc.)

2. there are hundreds of missions out there already. if you try to overhaul all of them, you are not only looking at another tremendous time sink, you are also bound to break several of them without the testers noticing which will result in carebear tears, stress, hotfixes etc.

3. with missions being the primary source of ISK and LP items, any major change to the system eill inevitably stress the markets and cause major shitstorms, potentially even a second summer of rage. i mean, just look at the people you represent: CCP pimps the NPCs by a shadow of a hair and makes them go for drones and suddenly the world is ending and missioners' heads explode. and yet these are paying customers and CCP cannot afford to lose them.

TL;DR good idea but risky and not worth the effort.


Pretty sure missions are getting an overhaul and NPC AI was just the beginning.
XxRTEKxX
256th Shadow Wing
Phantom-Recon
#19 - 2013-01-29 19:28:33 UTC
A lot of people have been asking for randomization in PvE. I just wish CCP would actually do it.

Ever since I first solo'd a level 4 mission, Ive been saying to friends in game that missions are boring. Ive been trying unorthodox fits to enhance my experience and stay away from the grind. Grinding missions sucks. Making less isk per mission because i have fleet mates with me sucks.

I wish missions were harder and more unpredictable than they are now. There is, to me, no fun in being able to look at a step by step guide on a website on how to survive/complete a mission in EVE. I understand its like that for all the isk makers who grind just for the isk.

Pre-vanguard Incursion nerf, they were fun because there was lots of incentive to outperform other fleets to win the sites. ISK payouts, the blinky on the neocom was that massive incentive. To me that was fun. Racing to every site, dscanning in warp to see what fleets we were about to compete with, and burning out guns to get that extra dps to win the site. That was fun. Then ccp nerfed it, and they sucked. Isk wasnt worth the grind. They tried to buff their payout a bit but it still felt like it was too damn boring. The competition wasnt even there anymore.

PvE missions are too scripted, they dont pay enough, and the only incentive of doing them in fleets is to finish them faster. To me, missions should be completely unpredictable, pay more the more friends i bring with me, and have the potential of being a 1-2 room mission or be a 20 room mission. I love WC because of the different rooms and two different enemies. I want it so random, that i accept a mission, and it takes me 3 hours to finish because it ends up having a lot of npc's and a lot of rooms to clear. Hell id even be happy if the mission sent me to 3-4 different systems to clear out numerous sites.

I want more reasons to take fleets into missions as well as to solo them. They are just too damn boring right now, and npc ewar only serves to make them less entertaining. Im playing to have fun, not be annoyed and bored with the PvE cont
Spaminator
Commerce Trade Federation Corporation
#20 - 2013-01-30 15:13:09 UTC
With the E War changes active at the moment... is this encouraging Caldari people to go back to the Rattlesnake? .... and drone it?
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