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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Renan Ruivo
Hengetools Consumer Products S.A.
#761 - 2011-10-11 06:23:49 UTC
I will... just... leave this here:

3000 Miles to Graceland.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Ciryath Al'Darion
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
#762 - 2011-10-11 06:25:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciryath Al'Darion
Velin Dhal wrote:


Also, if you think the alliances that can field large amounts of super caps can't fight without them, you have to be exceedingly stupid.


Please describe the reason to field supercapitals after this nerf?

All combat in eve is consensual; both sides agree the fight. (there are very few number of fights where the opposing force does not decide to go in but gets involved in the fight).

Team A fights team B. Team A has large supercapital fleet. B knows this. B knows that fielding capitals is suicide so they will not do this. Team A has supercapital fleet, but they have nothing to shoot them with.

=> supercarriers will become pos ornaments, with nothing to shoot at.

You describe the awesome situtation where you have tackled supercapital fleet and you are going to kill them all because of the agression timer. In reality, this won't happen because the supercapitals will not be on. Shooting structures is already boring and if thats the only thing these ships will be good at, you wont see them in combat.

If titan gun tracking will be nerfed aswel, there is no reason to field them on combat either.

and: the side having supercapitals has lot of pilots stuck in ship that is useless for the fight and cannot swap into usefull ship as the ships are unable to dock.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#763 - 2011-10-11 06:27:10 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:


Learn to adapt, or you'll never survive in 0.0.


Sign of desperation: calling the other guy a carebear.

What are you, some bitter ex-BoB ******? Quit it with the EVOL slogans.

Ganthrithor wrote:
I'm not sure how suggesting their drone capacity be reduced from ~1750 to 60 counts as "suggesting they be left as they are," but by all means feel free to explain your logic to us.

That doesn't fix the issues with SC~[/quote]

And this opinion is based on your limitless experience fighting and flying supercaps, right?



If you think I haven't been considering selling my SC for several months now, you're dumb. I eventually decided not to sell it, hoping that CCP would do something sensible (limit drones) instead of implementing yet another heavy-handed nerf (removing drones entirely) to correct for their overly-enthusiastic buff.

Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking either.

That said, I still might hang on to my SC. Even if these changes do go through, they'll still be useful for moving and storing subcaps, and I'll still be able to gank morons in my Nyx. It will simply be riskier. I'm disappointed that I won't be able to rat in it anymore, but its not the end of the world for me, personally. I still think its wrong of CCP to remove functionality from a ship class without offering people refunds though. I'm sure there are others who will find their ships basically useless post-nerf, and they'll have to eat a massive loss if they try to sell their ships.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#764 - 2011-10-11 06:27:49 UTC
The problem here is not capital ships. The problem here is people not understand fleet comp. A 60 man fleet of Muninns, Hictors, and scimitars can kill 3 super carriers with ease. If your not shooting their drones and letting them DPS you, how is that their fault ?

It may take a while to kill them but once they have no drones and no cap they're sitting ducks. Its not about a ship being to powerful. If a fleet of nothing but T2 cruisers can kill them, I wouldn't go to the extreme lengths to **** on them like is happening here.
Officer Nyota Uhura
#765 - 2011-10-11 06:31:55 UTC
I'm happy to see these changes happen.

- Yes, logoffski was a ghey tactic that needed to be removed. (But how about a real DC situation?)
- Yes, dread changes are great
- Yes, DD changes are good

But:

- No, Titans should still be nerfed against subcaps
- No, you shouldn't tanknerf all SCs with a fixed 20% - because only few of them are ubertanked
- No, you shouldn't weaken regular carriers

Unfortunately, although I like these changes, my own SC got so much worse that ... [WTS Wyvern].
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#766 - 2011-10-11 06:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Velin Dhal
Ciryath Al'Darion wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:


Also, if you think the alliances that can field large amounts of super caps can't fight without them, you have to be exceedingly stupid.


Please describe the reason to field supercapitals after this nerf?

All combat in eve is consensual; both sides agree the fight. (there are very few number of fights where the opposing force does not decide to go in but gets involved in the fight).

Team A fights team B. Team A has large supercapital fleet. B knows this. B knows that fielding capitals is suicide so they will not do this. Team A has supercapital fleet, but they have nothing to shoot them with.

=> supercarriers will become pos ornaments, with nothing to shoot at.

You describe the awesome situtation where you have tackled supercapital fleet and you are going to kill them all because of the agression timer. In reality, this won't happen because the supercapitals will not be on. Shooting structures is already boring and if thats the only thing these ships will be good at, you wont see them in combat.

If titan gun tracking will be nerfed aswel, there is no reason to field them on combat either.

and: the side having supercapitals has lot of pilots stuck in ship that is useless for the fight and cannot swap into usefull ship as the ships are unable to dock.


That was in response to comments saying that Alliances that can put out large numbers of them won't be able to fight without them. People forget that most people who can fly supers can fly many other ships. Just because they drops supers now doesn't mean they will be ineffective without them. So for someone thinking that this is going to topple a large alliance is foolish. This isn't going to make taking sov from them any easier.

I'm also not saying I agree with this update at all. As you can see from my many other comments in this thread
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#767 - 2011-10-11 06:33:05 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:


Learn to adapt, or you'll never survive in 0.0.


Sign of desperation: calling the other guy a carebear.

What are you, some bitter ex-BoB ******? Quit it with the EVOL slogans.

Cry more little bee, cry more.

Your super e-peen is getting nerfed and you're all floppy.

Nyan

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#768 - 2011-10-11 06:34:41 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
The problem here is not capital ships. The problem here is people not understand fleet comp. A 60 man fleet of Muninns, Hictors, and scimitars can kill 3 super carriers with ease. If your not shooting their drones and letting them DPS you, how is that their fault ?

It may take a while to kill them but once they have no drones and no cap they're sitting ducks. Its not about a ship being to powerful. If a fleet of nothing but T2 cruisers can kill them, I wouldn't go to the extreme lengths to **** on them like is happening here.


Agreed, sort of. The current situation with SCs being able to **** out ~1800 drones is pretty dumb, you could be shooting drones all day before they run out.

If SCs could field a limited number of drones though, this argument definitely applies. Just look at that Rooks and Kings video where they fight a bunch of hostile dreads and carriers-- they warp in a few smartbombing Geddons on top of the carrier the hostiles had primaried and blammo-- a couple of bomb-cycles later the hostiles have no drones left. Bombers and anti-support BCs, HACs, etc can all kill hostile drones / fighters / FB as well.

Hell, even without going after the drones, a well-run Welpfleet can demolish supercaps with relative ease and extreme cost-efficiency. Why do you think no hostiles have been fielding supercaps in Delve lately? Hint: its not because supercarriers are overpowered pwn mobiles that can't be killed due to their ability to field drones...
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
RONA Directorate
#769 - 2011-10-11 06:35:52 UTC
malet wrote:



Best post here tbh, Just goes to prove CCP are not playing the game. You are listening to the whiners . I have 3 accounts that are supercaptial trained, 2 titan and 1 nyx. Why should we suffer just because you fail to get a grip on what is happening in the game.

I have to agree i would like to see a pop up window asking if i would like all my skills for supercaps reallocated all the isk and time reimbursed. You have truly become detached from the wonderful game that you have created. Such a shame but at least star wars galaxies is out soon,, along with BF3, guess then you will see a few more unemployed GM`s in Iceland as i suspect a lot of people leaving this game in disgust.

Most of the whine comes from the people that don`` have the foresight to compete, and the ex northern coalition that gorged all their isk instead of investing it in super cap production for their alliances. Now they are homeless and bitching about it. So what do you do? You punish the people that invested time and money in their people.

The stealth carrier nerf is a joke, even CCP say in their blog to bring carriers to the field, why would you do that. The fighter nerf just makes them a large hauler to move ships around. Thats it.

You are killing the game and driving your player base to other forms of entertainment such as bf3 / s.wars etc. If that was your intention then good job!! Good luck with DUST514, If your lucky you may have a subscriber base of 50k people left.

And one final thing, if you think supercaps are too hard to kill, stick them up against a malestrom fleet of a welp fleet of canes, then come back to me and tell me they cant be killed!!!!

Dont expect any more cash from my wallet, or allow us 1 docking to reporcess these now completely useless ships and give us our skillpoints back



you of all people are a 2004 player and know that there is more to this game than just super caps and should have adpated to all situations by now. You started the game before super caps were even introduced and some how, you made it in the game.

Carriers - lets see, they have triage, can field any drone type except fighter bombers, move stuff around, deploy extra ships to a contested system if a pilot gets podded.

Mom's can still drop dreads and other capitals with out blinking an eye, titans can still drop massive fleets with good support.

hot dropping will still occur.

Also you are a member of fin fleet, didn't you hold space back in bob long before the super cap prolliferation?

You sir need to get in touch with your roots.

ALL super vets need to get in touch with their original roots, back when there were no 230573208532 super caps out there and when we fought for sov with what ever we could find. in the ship hanger.


Seriously are super cap pilots soo out of touch where they came from that they dont remember, where they came from or how they played the game initially?

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#770 - 2011-10-11 06:37:48 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
The problem here is not capital ships. The problem here is people not understand fleet comp. A 60 man fleet of Muninns, Hictors, and scimitars can kill 3 super carriers with ease. If your not shooting their drones and letting them DPS you, how is that their fault ?

It may take a while to kill them but once they have no drones and no cap they're sitting ducks. Its not about a ship being to powerful. If a fleet of nothing but T2 cruisers can kill them, I wouldn't go to the extreme lengths to **** on them like is happening here.


Agreed, sort of. The current situation with SCs being able to **** out ~1800 drones is pretty dumb, you could be shooting drones all day before they run out.

If SCs could field a limited number of drones though, this argument definitely applies. Just look at that Rooks and Kings video where they fight a bunch of hostile dreads and carriers-- they warp in a few smartbombing Geddons on top of the carrier the hostiles had primaried and blammo-- a couple of bomb-cycles later the hostiles have no drones left. Bombers and anti-support BCs, HACs, etc can all kill hostile drones / fighters / FB as well.

Hell, even without going after the drones, a well-run Welpfleet can demolish supercaps with relative ease and extreme cost-efficiency. Why do you think no hostiles have been fielding supercaps in Delve lately? Hint: its not because supercarriers are overpowered pwn mobiles that can't be killed due to their ability to field drones...


That would be a nerf I could live with.
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#771 - 2011-10-11 06:40:22 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
The problem here is not capital ships. The problem here is people not understand fleet comp. A 60 man fleet of Muninns, Hictors, and scimitars can kill 3 super carriers with ease. If your not shooting their drones and letting them DPS you, how is that their fault ?

It may take a while to kill them but once they have no drones and no cap they're sitting ducks. Its not about a ship being to powerful. If a fleet of nothing but T2 cruisers can kill them, I wouldn't go to the extreme lengths to **** on them like is happening here.


This man is right.

Supercaps are very killable for subcaps at the moment in EVE, it just requires planning and organization. Basically what CCP is saying with these changes is you shouldnt need a well thought out fleet to kill a supercap you should just need a blob.

I find it funny that these changes GREATLY FAVOR Goonswarm and TEST. And yes I have seen some Goon and TEST players post against these changes. The vast majority support the changes and have been pushing for a patch like this for the last year or so.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#772 - 2011-10-11 06:40:43 UTC
Could you please add a removal of immunities when operating in empire space?

Thank you.
malet
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#773 - 2011-10-11 06:42:21 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
malet wrote:



Best post here tbh, Just goes to prove CCP are not playing the game. You are listening to the whiners . I have 3 accounts that are supercaptial trained, 2 titan and 1 nyx. Why should we suffer just because you fail to get a grip on what is happening in the game.

I have to agree i would like to see a pop up window asking if i would like all my skills for supercaps reallocated all the isk and time reimbursed. You have truly become detached from the wonderful game that you have created. Such a shame but at least star wars galaxies is out soon,, along with BF3, guess then you will see a few more unemployed GM`s in Iceland as i suspect a lot of people leaving this game in disgust.

Most of the whine comes from the people that don`` have the foresight to compete, and the ex northern coalition that gorged all their isk instead of investing it in super cap production for their alliances. Now they are homeless and bitching about it. So what do you do? You punish the people that invested time and money in their people.

The stealth carrier nerf is a joke, even CCP say in their blog to bring carriers to the field, why would you do that. The fighter nerf just makes them a large hauler to move ships around. Thats it.

You are killing the game and driving your player base to other forms of entertainment such as bf3 / s.wars etc. If that was your intention then good job!! Good luck with DUST514, If your lucky you may have a subscriber base of 50k people left.

And one final thing, if you think supercaps are too hard to kill, stick them up against a malestrom fleet of a welp fleet of canes, then come back to me and tell me they cant be killed!!!!

Dont expect any more cash from my wallet, or allow us 1 docking to reporcess these now completely useless ships and give us our skillpoints back



you of all people are a 2004 player and know that there is more to this game than just super caps and should have adpated to all situations by now. You started the game before super caps were even introduced and some how, you made it in the game.

Carriers - lets see, they have triage, can field any drone type except fighter bombers, move stuff around, deploy extra ships to a contested system if a pilot gets podded.

Mom's can still drop dreads and other capitals with out blinking an eye, titans can still drop massive fleets with good support.

hot dropping will still occur.

Also you are a member of fin fleet, didn't you hold space back in bob long before the super cap prolliferation?

You sir need to get in touch with your roots.

ALL super vets need to get in touch with their original roots, back when there were no 230573208532 super caps out there and when we fought for sov with what ever we could find. in the ship hanger.


Seriously are super cap pilots soo out of touch where they came from that they dont remember, where they came from or how they played the game initially?


Can i have some of what you are smoking? Malet is not a super pilot and pvp`s in all sub capital ships. You are missing my point completely. I enjoy pvp with him but the point is CCP created these monsters and after the whole debarcle of the hp on sc`s a couple of years ago they now back track on something yet again.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#774 - 2011-10-11 06:42:41 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
malet wrote:



Best post here tbh, Just goes to prove CCP are not playing the game. You are listening to the whiners . I have 3 accounts that are supercaptial trained, 2 titan and 1 nyx. Why should we suffer just because you fail to get a grip on what is happening in the game.

I have to agree i would like to see a pop up window asking if i would like all my skills for supercaps reallocated all the isk and time reimbursed. You have truly become detached from the wonderful game that you have created. Such a shame but at least star wars galaxies is out soon,, along with BF3, guess then you will see a few more unemployed GM`s in Iceland as i suspect a lot of people leaving this game in disgust.

Most of the whine comes from the people that don`` have the foresight to compete, and the ex northern coalition that gorged all their isk instead of investing it in super cap production for their alliances. Now they are homeless and bitching about it. So what do you do? You punish the people that invested time and money in their people.

The stealth carrier nerf is a joke, even CCP say in their blog to bring carriers to the field, why would you do that. The fighter nerf just makes them a large hauler to move ships around. Thats it.

You are killing the game and driving your player base to other forms of entertainment such as bf3 / s.wars etc. If that was your intention then good job!! Good luck with DUST514, If your lucky you may have a subscriber base of 50k people left.

And one final thing, if you think supercaps are too hard to kill, stick them up against a malestrom fleet of a welp fleet of canes, then come back to me and tell me they cant be killed!!!!

Dont expect any more cash from my wallet, or allow us 1 docking to reporcess these now completely useless ships and give us our skillpoints back



you of all people are a 2004 player and know that there is more to this game than just super caps and should have adpated to all situations by now. You started the game before super caps were even introduced and some how, you made it in the game.

Carriers - lets see, they have triage, can field any drone type except fighter bombers, move stuff around, deploy extra ships to a contested system if a pilot gets podded.

Mom's can still drop dreads and other capitals with out blinking an eye, titans can still drop massive fleets with good support.

hot dropping will still occur.

Also you are a member of fin fleet, didn't you hold space back in bob long before the super cap prolliferation?

You sir need to get in touch with your roots.

ALL super vets need to get in touch with their original roots, back when there were no 230573208532 super caps out there and when we fought for sov with what ever we could find. in the ship hanger.


Seriously are super cap pilots soo out of touch where they came from that they dont remember, where they came from or how they played the game initially?


When you pay 20 something billion isk for a super and then have it nerfed to the point of useless, you really expect people to not be upset ?

Honestly who cares what the game was like 7 years ago ? That was before the ship existed. People have put countless amounts of isk into a ship type that has many uses and now its going to be epic fail at all of them EXCEPT killing other caps ?

There are other ways of fixing a problem that don't involve destroying every ship bigger than a battleship and wasting years of skill training.
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#775 - 2011-10-11 06:43:52 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:


Learn to adapt, or you'll never survive in 0.0.


Sign of desperation: calling the other guy a carebear.

What are you, some bitter ex-BoB ******? Quit it with the EVOL slogans.

Cry more little bee, cry more.

Your super e-peen is getting nerfed and you're all floppy.



You realize the "Little Bee" coalition is in full support of this patch...... i dont think you do.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#776 - 2011-10-11 06:44:14 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:


Learn to adapt, or you'll never survive in 0.0.


Sign of desperation: calling the other guy a carebear.

What are you, some bitter ex-BoB ******? Quit it with the EVOL slogans.

Cry more little bee, cry more.

Your super e-peen is getting nerfed and you're all floppy.


Good to see that when one runs out of rational (or irrational, for that matter) arguments, continued trolling is always an option.

Don't cause yourself too much worry over the future of my e-peen. My SC sits flaccid most of the time as it is. I am, however, always hard for subcaps.
Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
#777 - 2011-10-11 06:44:28 UTC
Yeah, whatever. Just nerf everyone and make Amarr Akbar! CoolCool
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#778 - 2011-10-11 06:49:14 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:


Honestly who cares what the game was like 7 years ago ? That was before the ship existed. People have put countless amounts of isk into a ship type that has many uses and now its going to be epic fail at all of them EXCEPT killing other caps ?



And CCP is saying that if your going to kill capitals in this ship class you better be part of a large alliance or coalition capable of providing safety in numbers.

They are also saying that the group with the biggest sub cap blob (Goons and TEST) will be able to dominate large scale PVP.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#779 - 2011-10-11 06:50:57 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
[quote=Velin Dhal]This man is right.

Supercaps are very killable for subcaps at the moment in EVE, it just requires planning and organization. Basically what CCP is saying with these changes is you shouldnt need a well thought out fleet to kill a supercap you should just need a blob.

I find it funny that these changes GREATLY FAVOR Goonswarm and TEST. And yes I have seen some Goon and TEST players post against these changes. The vast majority support the changes and have been pushing for a patch like this for the last year or so.


This isn't COAD, its not a place for propaganda and posturing-- its a place to discuss the future of gameplay. I would hope that people wouldn't just vote the party line on every issue here.

I'm mostly for these changes (I think supercaps are broken and killing gameplay) but there's just one particular point on which I disagree (that the total removal, rather than limitation of, drones on supercarriers is unnecessary). I'm not going to argue that this is necessary just because Mittani says I should, or because I think it would benefit our alliance (which I think it would, since we tend to be more subcap than supercap heavy).
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#780 - 2011-10-11 06:56:10 UTC
My Thoughts,

I believe titan guns need nerfed - the ability for titans to be remote sensor boosted and trackling linked while unable to e-war'd in return is entirely broken. The fights earlier this year consisted of bait out the battleship gang then bring in X number of titans relative to the hostile fleet size, DD command and logi and then they would ALPHA STRIKE BATTLESHIPS AND CRUISERS OFF THE FIELD because they would be remote boosted and supported by superarriers which themselves would not kill anything but they would remote sensor boost and tracking enhance the titans while their guns completely destroyed the hostile fleets. In those instances the supercarriers would rarely deploy a drone of any kind and did not need to.

I believe the drone nerfing for supers will not have a major effect, that the fighter sig resolution nerf is silly as usually tracking on fighters usually mitigates that problem anyway. Also one of the problems ive noticed with fighterbombers is that they cannot be killed, even away from the supercarrier they've instantly redocked / warped off - you should be able to tackle and bubble fighterbombers and kill them.

Dreads - the moros has cap issues as is a ROF bonus is going to make that worse. the rest is good

Titans, i agree with the DD nerf but i believe the tracking for titans needs to be investigated further - my suggestion is to rebalance all the titan guns to be the same as in siege and at current then remove the tracking debuff from the siege modules, not like dreads ever needed the tracking for their dismal dps out of siege anyway.

the logoff mechanics i believe will be a double edged sword that will prevent the use of these giant expensive ships even further and with the way the game works will become a kind of highlander like scenario once the powerblocks actually commit to fighting with them.


My personal opinion is
Supercarriers - remove the supercapital portion(remove the e-war immunity, allow to dock, remove remote ecm burst, siege module for fighterbombers, lower their HP) - make fighterbombers easier to kill

Titans, I agree with the proposed DD nerf - remove the gun dps bonus, implement siege module - basically its an oversized dreadnaught taxi thing.

Dreads - same as above

Logoff same as above

and my personal wishlist item - docking in capitals

Concept any ship that has a ship maint bay could have other players dock their ship rather than just store it - then all docked players jump with the capital when it moves.

I believe it could be implemented as part of walking in stations, allowing corp / alliance / fleet members within the same station to somehow share a lobby and board into carriers that would give a captains quarters environment to the docked players while the capital is in space that they can undock / redock from and they would travel with the ship.

I believe a large portion of supercapitals being game breaking in their current form is the macro's and bots that have farmed the resources to build these very expensive ships. which leads to...

The issue of botting has lead to the constant argument of removing local chat from updating players until they talk. I do not agree with making known space local like W-Space, it would allow cloaky griefing on a catastrophic scale, its already bad enough as is. I believe the compromise is delaying local chat by maybe 5-15min could have a large impact in catching bots. Also im sure bots could easily enough be recognized by statistics, and once recognized that they test the user with a simple read this then type thing like the forums do to prevent robots from registering or hot linking.

Now as this is not short and sweet i doubt it will be read by anyone
-GeeBee