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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#701 - 2011-10-11 04:23:30 UTC
EXACTLY, and whoever it was was saying this was a exploit.

SO I responded, you all are the ones that are failing the reading comprehension , not me.

Infinion
Awesome Corp
#702 - 2011-10-11 04:23:47 UTC
Maybe CCP should start considering targetable subsystems on capital ships so that subcap pilots can selectively incapacitate them rather than just outright nerfing supercap functionality for the subcaps?



In any case it looks like now's the time to be using the full potential of your supers before the expansion.

Winter is Coming
Vaffel Junior
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#703 - 2011-10-11 04:25:37 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vaffel Junior wrote:
I guess this is the beginning of the end for EVE.

EVE closing up on WOW.

You need only 6 moths to train up to the largest usefull ship in eve... battleship !!!


Hey everyone, look at this post.

Look at it.



It's a very bad post.


You are bad..
You are a goon pet
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
#704 - 2011-10-11 04:28:26 UTC
Also CCP tallest,

Low Sec is still EMPIRE space, why are caps allowed there at all?
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#705 - 2011-10-11 04:29:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Stealthiest wrote:
How about a rename and some resizing. A super carrier that is not a carrier, but is the same size as a carrier?

As a 2 titan, 1 mS owner I say bout f**king time for most of this, But no dd on Sub-caps at all? No drones on a Super carrier?

I mean really!!!!!



Yes, really. DDing frigates and cruisers is bullshit and you know it.


How is it bullshit ? Sorry that my 30+ billion isk ship that I had to wait like half a year to build and took me 4 years of training to get in can instantly destroy your 10 cent frigate. I mean seriously, what am I thinking its so unfair of me. Why would I ever assume that time and money could buy power in a game running on a capitalist economy ? To make me even more of a bad guy, why would I assume that my hard earned money and dedicated skill training would give me the right to fly ships untouchable by someone with less skills and dedication than me ?

I'm so ashamed of myself

Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#706 - 2011-10-11 04:29:14 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
but this means 100 super carriers can't solo 1000 battleships, im quitting eve. /sarcasm



1000 BS: approx value: 255billion.

100 SC: approx value(t2fit): 1.8 trillion.

in eve wealth makes you powerless lol
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#707 - 2011-10-11 04:30:18 UTC
Not every supercap pilot uses their ship in a blob context. If you're dead-set on stripping SCs of the little defensive capabilities they currently have (being able to field light drones) rather than simply reducing their drone bay sizes to 250-350m3 (which is the solution I think offers the best balance between the current "infinite drones" situation and SCs being utterly defenseless against any potential tacklers), then can you at least add in some logistical support perks to compensate?

I currently use my Nyx as a combination operations hub and ratting cap / dumb JF killing platform. If you're going to take combat usage in a small-gang context from "extremely risky" (currently, even with "infinite drones" it's extremely hard to fight off a competent hostile tackle-- all they need is a light dictor or two who know how to pilot their ships and you're gonna be stuck on the field for as long as they have warp disrupt probes left to deploy) to "near suicidal" (supers will be completely unable to fend off any hostile tackle at all, even baddies), then can you add some logistical capabilities to compensate?

Ideas I've been toying with for new / augmented logistical capacity are:

- Increased SMA / CHA space (can keep more people supplied with ships and gear)
- "Repair bays" which could be used to repair items (for example, to rep fully heat-damaged modules)
- Assembly lines that could produce the kinds of goods frequently consumed in small gang warfare-- nanite paste, bubbles, drones, possibly subcap-sized modules, etc.
- Perhaps a limited variant of the jump portal generator-- perhaps only capable of bridging cruiser-sized hulls and smaller. This would leave fleet-level bridging to titans, but provide SCs an ability to augment small gang type warfare, similar to the way blops BS can at the moment.

Personally I think the idea of using supercarriers as logistics platforms is pretty cool. It would give SCs a continued use outside blob warfare for people like me who don't like unopposed structure bashing, and would help compensate for the fact that they'll be much less useful for combat in small gang contexts.
IZZY EPIC
Pleasure Island
#708 - 2011-10-11 04:30:30 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
IZZY EPIC wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
Sounds good, but will this also affect people who log off without aggression, and would normally dissapear within 1 minute?

If you have not registered aggression at the point of logoff, you will disappear as normal. This cannot be extended by post-logoff aggression.


Aw, so no fix thus far for jump-in -> Logoffski. What if logging off within a minute of the conclusion of the session change timer activated the 15 minute timer for remaining in space?



This is a good point, it's pretty annoying having a freighter pilot jumpthrough unscouted realizing there is small gang waiting for him.
And he simply loggs out to save his ship!?! Pretty lame exploit to game mechanics for his mistake.

You want cap fleets to commit to the fight?

well make pilots commit in general too.

Make jumping through unscouted have a risk, because Log off should not be a get out jail free card in this situation.

Ccp what is your thoughts on this?


Done for the day. Nobody in local, so you log off.
5 minutes later someone comes in knowing that a sitting duck will be around for 15 minutes.
Drops a probe and POP.
Next time you log in you are in your pod.

Now if CCP could make it so you will stick around for 15 minutes after jumping through a gate.
Well then fine, short of that forget it.


Wasn't talking about in general, if you actaully read what I quoted.

I was talking about the first minute or two after you jump through a gate.
To deterr logg offs caused when a target jumps into a gang.
If you waited the so called stargate timer then log off which could be a simple 90 second including the 60 seconds in which your cloaked.
You disappear with in a minute. Earlier and then the agression is slapped on.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
RONA Directorate
#709 - 2011-10-11 04:31:06 UTC
The true bitter vets of eve are the ones who manipulate the market, alliance politics, and resources out of the sight of peering eyes. Not the super cap pilots.

The proper vets know not to put their investments all into 1 ship that can go boom and cant get a good pay off of insurance

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#710 - 2011-10-11 04:32:15 UTC
create fighter bays,

reduce current drone bay to something logical.

make the SC pilot choose 1 flight of Heavy sized drones.
Camar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#711 - 2011-10-11 04:32:52 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
The true bitter vets of eve are the ones who manipulate the market, alliance politics, and resources out of the sight of peering eyes. Not the super cap pilots.

The proper vets know not to put their investments all into 1 ship that can go boom and cant get a good pay off of insurance

true bitter vets dont play eve anymore
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#712 - 2011-10-11 04:38:27 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Stealthiest wrote:
How about a rename and some resizing. A super carrier that is not a carrier, but is the same size as a carrier?

As a 2 titan, 1 mS owner I say bout f**king time for most of this, But no dd on Sub-caps at all? No drones on a Super carrier?

I mean really!!!!!



Yes, really. DDing frigates and cruisers is bullshit and you know it.


How is it bullshit ? Sorry that my 30+ billion isk ship that I had to wait like half a year to build and took me 4 years of training to get in can instantly destroy your 10 cent frigate. I mean seriously, what am I thinking its so unfair of me. Why would I ever assume that time and money could buy power in a game running on a capitalist economy ? To make me even more of a bad guy, why would I assume that my hard earned money and dedicated skill training would give me the right to fly ships untouchable by someone with less skills and dedication than me ?

I'm so ashamed of myself



I can't even tell if you're being sarcastic, since everything you said is true in the literal, face-value sense.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#713 - 2011-10-11 04:39:37 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Not every supercap pilot uses their ship in a blob context. If you're dead-set on stripping SCs of the little defensive capabilities they currently have (being able to field light drones) rather than simply reducing their drone bay sizes to 250-350m3 (which is the solution I think offers the best balance between the current "infinite drones" situation and SCs being utterly defenseless against any potential tacklers), then can you at least add in some logistical support perks to compensate?

Was the SC ever intended as a ratting platform?

Was the SC ever intended for solo ganking?

You will no doubt have a hard time finding support for that position.

Nyan

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#714 - 2011-10-11 04:41:12 UTC
Do own a Erebus

Do 0wn in sub caps

Did own a Nyx

Do think all the changes are fine.


Carry on.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#715 - 2011-10-11 04:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
IZZY EPIC wrote:


Wasn't talking about in general, if you actaully read what I quoted.

I was talking about the first minute or two after you jump through a gate.
To deterr logg offs caused when a target jumps into a gang.
If you waited the so called stargate timer then log off which could be a simple 90 second including the 60 seconds in which your cloaked.
You disappear with in a minute. Earlier and then the agression is slapped on.




Actually Izzy I was agreeing with you and just giving an example of what would happen if CCP stamped everyone with a 15 log off timer, aggro or not.
Not that you were promoting one.

THen secondly I stated if CCP could instead imply a 15 minute timer once you jump through a gate then that would solve the issue of jumping through a gate and logging off before you get aggro.

I am not sure how to make it clearer.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#716 - 2011-10-11 04:43:23 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
The true bitter vets of eve are the ones who manipulate the market, alliance politics, and resources out of the sight of peering eyes. Not the super cap pilots.

The proper vets know not to put their investments all into 1 ship that can go boom and cant get a good pay off of insurance



Your right about the investments part. No smart cap pilot puts all their eggs in one basket. However, experienced pilots should benefit from having more SP. Hot dropping has always been part of the game. You know how you avoid it ? Don't be stupid and don't bite off more than you can chew. If you don't have the power to match -A- or PL then you don't do it. Hit them where it hurt instead and war dec them. Pop their haulers in high sec. Take their isk away. There are more ways to fight a war than military power. If you can't stand up with force, use other tactics. I don't see the need to nerf ships that are perfectly fine when only stupid people don't expect certain alliances to drop supers. If your too poor to replace your battleship because PL dropped 6 Supers on it, then perhaps you shouldn't be flying a battleship ? Why punish high SP characters that have money because the low SP characters that don't gather intel before they attack something.

As for the larger alliances promoting this change. I'm not suprised to see Goons and Initiative. here. Sucks getting kicked out of all your space by someone richer and more powerful than you, doesn't it ?
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#717 - 2011-10-11 04:45:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nephilius
Just real quick...

Velin Dhal wrote:
The so called "I win" button is something you press because your rich and have been playing this game for years. Those people probably busted their ass in low-sec and 0.0. Sorry if you sat in high-sec with your concord security blanket for your entire eve career. That is not our problem.


This is self-entitlement. Read it, and understand that. Don't think you are special because you did something different than everyone else, because they did something you don't agree with. It isn't your game, or Goons, or NC or BoB or whomever the hell you think. It's everybody's game and we all know that these big azz ships are fielded in stupid numbers to tip the tide because it's easier that way.

Now, I'm not going to pretend I know alot about the mechanics of Carriers, Dreads, Moms, Super Caps or anything like that. I don't, so alot of these changes are just a tad bit over me. The logoffski mechanic getting fixed is easily the best thing, and I can see everyone pretty much agrees to that. Here's where I have to go into unfamiliar territory, and I am really going to just touch on one thing.

The whole Super Cap and Sub Cap thing seems to be more realistic if the Super Caps cannot own the Subcap ship classes with impunity. We're talking about gargantuan ships that were really designed to take on other gargantuan ships and large structures. Wiping the board clean of subcaps seems to me to be a broken mechanic. I'm not speaking of DD devices, I still believe that those should probably sterilize the battlefield of both sides. As far as subcaps taking out a Supercap, yeah, it should be possible, but you should need immense amounts of firepower to do it too. If it takes a 100+ Canes or Megas, then that's what it takes. It's not going to happen in a few minutes, nor should it. It should be possible, but only with coordination. Likewise, a Supercap should not enter the battlefield without subcap support, that would be stupid. Ultimately, it should be tactics versus tactics, not who brought the biggest or meanest ship.

I get the feeling that CCP is trying to make these monstrosities matter again, to make them special, something that isn't an everyday thing, but a commitment to a cause. A supercap should really be a last resort, or at the very least, the cornerstone of an assault. But no assault would be complete without fleet support, and I really see that CCP is trying to steer the game back in the subcap direction. I remember when a supercap being fielded or a DD device being used was something special, a Breaking News report that everyone read because it didn't happen everyday. But when it becomes commonplace, there's nothing special about it anymore. It's like hearing Tiger Woods won yet another championship, it's not momentous or awe inspiring, it just becomes meh.

Overall, I'm seeing alot of the big alliances pretty peeved about all this and it tells me that it's probably a good thing for the game. I think it will make people think twice about gratuitously throwing these ships on the field with an overriding sense of invulnerability. I hope it will make them special again, and therefore actually have some meaning once more.
"If."
Infinion
Awesome Corp
#718 - 2011-10-11 04:45:45 UTC
Camar wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
The true bitter vets of eve are the ones who manipulate the market, alliance politics, and resources out of the sight of peering eyes. Not the super cap pilots.

The proper vets know not to put their investments all into 1 ship that can go boom and cant get a good pay off of insurance

true bitter vets dont play eve anymore


the bitter vets that are still playing play only because they're optimistic for change. Apparently optimism is a brain defect
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#719 - 2011-10-11 04:49:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:

Was the SC ever intended as a ratting platform?

Was the SC ever intended for solo ganking?

You will no doubt have a hard time finding support for that position.



Intended for? Who gives a flying **** what was intended-- the ships' statistics and capabilities made them an excellent ratting platform, and a decent (if risky) platform for solo ganking other capitals.

There are very few ships in EVE that have a limited set of uses (industrials, dictors, and dreads are about the only ships I can think of that don't regularly get used for purposes other than the ones they were "intended for"). If I buy a battleship, I can fit it for fleet PvP, solo PvP, or PvE. Same with a BC. Same with a carrier, etc, etc. What's your problem with the idea that people want to continue using ships for purposes you don't consider appropriate? I'm not going to tell you how you should or shouldn't be able to use your Megathron, so stop suggesting you ought be able to dictate to me how I should use my supercarrier.
Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#720 - 2011-10-11 04:51:56 UTC
.....I do not think any Super/Titan Pilots will be voting for your Serious CSM Position. Sorry Brosef o/

Darius III wrote:
The CSM has spent a lot of time working with CCP on this issue.For myself, I stayed on the logoffski issue more than anything else-as this too, will help reduce the sheer number of SC hulls. While I do not think that this nerf package is 'the perfect solution' it is great steps in the right direction. As Two-Step pointed out, if you have something to add, this thread would be a good place.

This shows that CCP is taking to heart player concerns and moving forward in a timely manner. Hats off to them for taking initiative and getting this done sooner than later. It is my honest belief after having seen Hillmars blog-that CCP will be delivering us many more good fixes in the near future.


"We are changing the logoff mechanics in such a way that as long as your enemies are actively engaged in fighting you, logging off is not going to save your ship."Shocked

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"