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Extreme NPC targeting range
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#21 - 2013-01-26 13:12:02 UTC
Merouk Baas wrote:

To reduce server load. Rats don't "see" like we do, the AI just has the list of everything in the grid and makes combat and pathing decisions based on that one list. Rat can't even move without targetting you first. CCP can change it so the AI "focuses" on you, moves closer, THEN targets you, but that's another change to the NPC AI and they just finished the last one, to huge complaints from a few players.


You do understand that the "server load" added by an "if (vector length > X)" statement is orders of magnitude less important than the most of the instructions the rat consumes per tick right?

Actually, since rats not only EWAR but also fire from those distance, the server takes no less CPU at all, but more if anything.

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Shirley Serious
Gutter Press
#22 - 2013-01-26 13:35:01 UTC
Spurty wrote:
silens vesica wrote:

So drop a bookmark, warp out, warp back at +10K. Problem solved.

It's very clear he can't do this because it requires thinking. Breaking game or nothing for this chap.


No, there's a reason why you can't warp out and back in this case.

The OP stated they want to lurk cloaked in an exploration site, (and some other places), so they can get the jump on anyone else turning up at that site.

But for many exploration sites, if you warp out, the site despawns.

"So what?" you might ask. Well, it means that exploration sites, probably won't have cloaked players in them, ready to ambush the unwary.

Might be a way to get around things using a 2nd account to draw npc attention while the cloaker ship enters and cloaks up, but that activity is more noticeable than a single ambushing cloaked player.

Just the facts.
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-01-26 15:33:11 UTC
Currently, the rat's extreme lock range does have the benefit of letting us know they have noticed us and are coming for us though.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#24 - 2013-01-26 15:36:03 UTC
Texty wrote:
Currently, the rat's extreme lock range does have the benefit of letting us know they have noticed us and are coming for us though.

This was an issue when the rats in all of a mission were "aggroing" a player on warp in and wrecking people, wasn't it?

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Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-01-26 15:51:19 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Texty wrote:
Currently, the rat's extreme lock range does have the benefit of letting us know they have noticed us and are coming for us though.

This was an issue when the rats in all of a mission were "aggroing" a player on warp in and wrecking people, wasn't it?

The locking itself (yellow box) was not an issue, since they can't do anything until they come close enough (red box.) ... Or maybe I'm not getting what your trying to say (English isn't my first language.)

I guess I wasn't clear enough, yellow box worked as an indicator of NPC aggro, so removing the NPC's long lock range is fine but I'll miss the aggro indicator factor, that's what I was trying to say.
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-01-26 15:57:28 UTC
Shirley Serious wrote:
Spurty wrote:
silens vesica wrote:

So drop a bookmark, warp out, warp back at +10K. Problem solved.

It's very clear he can't do this because it requires thinking. Breaking game or nothing for this chap.


No, there's a reason why you can't warp out and back in this case.

The OP stated they want to lurk cloaked in an exploration site, (and some other places), so they can get the jump on anyone else turning up at that site.

But for many exploration sites, if you warp out, the site despawns.

"So what?" you might ask. Well, it means that exploration sites, probably won't have cloaked players in them, ready to ambush the unwary.

Might be a way to get around things using a 2nd account to draw npc attention while the cloaker ship enters and cloaks up, but that activity is more noticeable than a single ambushing cloaked player.



Luckily, it seems an exploration site doesn't despawn until you've actually interacted with it (i.e. ran a hacking module on a container or something equivalent) and then warp out. I am not 100% certain about this, just my impression.

Warping out is what I am indeed forced to do currently; this is a waste of time compared to just being able to burn out of ordinary targeting range.
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-01-26 16:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Moneta Curran
Texty wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Texty wrote:
Currently, the rat's extreme lock range does have the benefit of letting us know they have noticed us and are coming for us though.

This was an issue when the rats in all of a mission were "aggroing" a player on warp in and wrecking people, wasn't it?

The locking itself (yellow box) was not an issue, since they can't do anything until they come close enough (red box.) ... Or maybe I'm not getting what your trying to say (English isn't my first language.)

I guess I wasn't clear enough, yellow box worked as an indicator of NPC aggro, so removing the NPC's long lock range is fine but I'll miss the aggro indicator factor, that's what I was trying to say.


If you keep an eye on the distance between the rats and your ship, you should be fine. You would still see them yellow box you when they come into their actual targeting range.

Personally, I think rats not aggressing while you are on the same grid blowing up their fleet members is daft anyway.
Merouk Baas
#28 - 2013-01-26 17:23:16 UTC
Would create a new issue, though: not knowing whether the rats are on you or on your drones.

Yes I could wait until they get into range, to see if they target me or not, but 1. I don't have their range memorized - never had to because the box just turned red at range, and 2. I won't have enough time to react since by the time I figure they're in range the drones are shot.

Currently the indicators are as follows:

- no color - rat isn't aggroing
- yellow - rat is coming after me
- red - rat is in range

You want:

- no color - rat isn't aggroing OR rat is coming after me OR rat is coming after my drones
- yellow - rat is in range and immediately red - rat is shooting

They do lock instantly, that's another issue. Maybe if they had a delay in targetting, even if the targetting had infinte range, it would let you cloak up, and solve your issue.
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-01-26 17:40:06 UTC
Merouk Baas wrote:
Would create a new issue, though: not knowing whether the rats are on you or on your drones.

Yes I could wait until they get into range, to see if they target me or not, but 1. I don't have their range memorized - never had to because the box just turned red at range, and 2. I won't have enough time to react since by the time I figure they're in range the drones are shot.

Currently the indicators are as follows:

- no color - rat isn't aggroing
- yellow - rat is coming after me
- red - rat is in range

You want:

- no color - rat isn't aggroing OR rat is coming after me OR rat is coming after my drones
- yellow - rat is in range and immediately red - rat is shooting

They do lock instantly, that's another issue. Maybe if they had a delay in targetting, even if the targetting had infinte range, it would let you cloak up, and solve your issue.


I appreciate that you offer up all these alternatives, but I really think their targeting range should just be restricted to be equivalent of that of a decently skilled player in the same hull.

I couldn't actually care less about the whole carebear easy mode aspect of having advanced knowledge of which rats may be coming after you even before they are within range. That's just a 'fortunate' side effect of the same stupid mechanic.
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-01-26 18:01:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Moneta Curran
Nvm.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#31 - 2013-01-26 21:09:42 UTC
Shirley Serious wrote:

"So what?" you might ask. Well, it means that exploration sites, probably won't have cloaked players in them, ready to ambush the unwary.

Indeed, I say exactly that.
There are plenty of ways of nailing someone in an exploration site - I've even been victimized by a few.

If he really wants to lurk in exploration sites, he's just going to have to do what everyone else does, and burn out of range then come back (to the dropped BM +10) if he can. Or slow-boat it back in.

When I cloak-lurk, I'm committing to spending time to set up my kill. And to possibly not even getting anyone in my sights at all.
If he can't exhibit patience, he's just going to have to use the other methods.

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I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#32 - 2013-01-26 22:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: I Love Boobies
So, if they change the targeting range on NPCs to appease your cloaking abilities, shouldn't they also change their tanks and DPS to match players too? Lol
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-01-26 22:24:11 UTC
Yeah they should nerf the NPC hit points too.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#34 - 2013-01-26 22:29:11 UTC
NPCs train a little known skill unavailable to players. It is rank 15 and is called 'Super Targeting Range' With this skill NPCs can target lock and shoot further than players by 10% per level.

Unfortunately, it's cost prevents them from training anything else effectively, and it is a must have for them, so they don't do any real damage as a side effect. Not only that, but it includes a 10% penalty to all weapon damage per level to compensate for the superior firing range it provides.
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-01-26 22:47:45 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
I got nothing.


FIXED.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#36 - 2013-01-26 23:17:10 UTC
Going to hijack this thread by not trolling.

CCP claims they want PvE to work more like PvP. Beyond making everyone live & die by the number of capacitor charges they can stuff into their cargo holds, they still refuse to touch the most basic problem of NPC ships not abiding by any of the same rules as PC ships. Rats don't have capacitor (and thus never run out). Their fittings rarely (if ever) even match the number of slots of PC ships, let alone the modules. Their hitspoint likewise don't correspond to anything PC ships use, either.

Simply put, Rat ships are in their own little universe that follows exactly zero of the same rules as ours.

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