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Off grid boosting fix is like waiting for a miracle?
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#81 - 2013-01-25 15:53:55 UTC
Yim Sei wrote:
We all know there is no such thing as a fair fight in Eve.

IMHO the offgrid boosting is certainly a bit of a ***** tool, similarly to the guy shouting for 1v1 GFs with his cloaky falcon alt.

There is no difference.


I agree there is no difference in that both are ****. But the frequency of cloaky falcons is much much less such that it is a tolerable level. Now every fit thread you see in failheap challenge is referencing how boosts work.

Seriously as solo pilot its impossible to really work out a decent fit. You know that unless you drag that booster alt around with you, you are going to end up with embarrassing losses.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#82 - 2013-01-25 15:59:08 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
Yim Sei wrote:
We all know there is no such thing as a fair fight in Eve.

IMHO the offgrid boosting is certainly a bit of a ***** tool, similarly to the guy shouting for 1v1 GFs with his cloaky falcon alt.

There is no difference.

I tried to find some pew the other day, just me on my own in an Omen.
Finally found a guy who immediately changed ship to a Tornado clumsily tried to get range to snipe and etc etc.
Obviosly that didnt work so went back to a stabber - probes cam out (why I was 100k off the station?) and before he dropped in the T3 undocks.
Seriouisly this is what solo PvP is about now?
Obviously I tipped my hat at the lady and left.

Its seems to me to be all about NO RISK whatever happens.
As soon as some obvious OP tactic gets nerfed they are out in droves defending their NO RISK PvP.

Some of the drivel on here is just painful to read - tldr "Dont nerf my I WIN button!!!"

As far as the technical issues surrounding this - and I dont prefer to be an expert on what will work for the game (like 99.9% of this Omnicient community Roll )

.. Why cant the boosts work on a ranged basis? doesnt the Orca work like this?

One thing to remember is that if this is removed from T3, its not like it makes the ships useless. They have many other roles.



The range based boosts are computational heavy and scales horribly with number of people on grid. I doubt CCP will be willing to go that way.



Well we have had other ranged things like doomsday and smartbombs and ecm bursts.

If the problem is that fleet bonuses are constantly updating then just make them have a duration. Say they have a 20 second duration so if you are in range of the booster you get the boost for the full 20 seconds if you are out of range you miss that cycle.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
JD No7
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#83 - 2013-01-25 16:11:29 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Jassmin Joy wrote:
While i agree that t3' boosts are OP at the moment, off grid boosting is not. It's been my general experience that the only people complaining about "off-grid" boosting are those that cant be bothered to take advantage of it themselves, or those that can't think for themselves and find a counter, off grid is a essential asset for smaller gangs to operate in this game where everything is becoming more risk adverse by the day.


Excuse me if I still think the only risk averse is the guy not willing to commit his ship to the fight because of some very bad mechanic offering huge advantages, read all the benefits but with NO RISK.

If you're not risk averse you'll bring your boosting ship to the fight, if you're risk averse and not willing to risk loosing your boosting ship then you leave it at the station.
Battlecruisers have enough slots to fit at least one gang link, those should be used more often in gangs for links rather than neut/salvager


The issue is the cost of fitting multiple links atm - the co-processors render any ship useless in a proper fight if it wants to fit 3 links. Fit 1 link to each ship you say? OK, but you only have 3 booster slots (gang / wing / fleet) and one of those requires a really heavy duty skill investment to use.

The fixes to link slots for command and T3 ships will be welcomed with open arms - I look forward to flying on-grid liks myself (and sometimes do already) but T1 battlecruisers will also need to be able to fit multiple links for them to be used a lot.

Utimately, our corp / alliance already has draft fits ready to deal with this change in all our doctrines as we learned long ago this is EVE - Adapt or Die.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#84 - 2013-01-25 18:34:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
No idea, but my assumption is she's getting smacked in the face with a nerf bat. Just as my loki/legion/tengu/proteus/eos/claymore/damnation/vulture pilots are.

-Liang

It was my understanding that fleet command ships were getting a buff, as in getting bonuses to two types of boosts instead of one. Damnation for example would give the 3% bonus per level to armored and skirmish, Claymore to siege and skirmish, eos to information and armored, and vulture to information and siege (IIRC, the exact combinations may be different).

The T3s would get a 2% bonus per level to three types of boosts, so a Tengu could boost information, skirmish, and siege for example.

Along side that the command ships will gain the ability to be dangerous opponents on their own merit if they are not being used for boosting, which currently isn't the case as even rigged for pure combat they have very poor damage output.

Won't it be an interesting day when you hear on Coms :Oh crap, it's a 30 man Eos fleet! SCATTER!" Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-01-25 18:36:06 UTC
We use command ships for on-grid boosting anyways. Enemy FCs generally don't target them because they have such massive tanks, so it's usually better to go for the logi or dps.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#86 - 2013-01-25 18:41:08 UTC
JD No7 wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Jassmin Joy wrote:
While i agree that t3' boosts are OP at the moment, off grid boosting is not. It's been my general experience that the only people complaining about "off-grid" boosting are those that cant be bothered to take advantage of it themselves, or those that can't think for themselves and find a counter, off grid is a essential asset for smaller gangs to operate in this game where everything is becoming more risk adverse by the day.


Excuse me if I still think the only risk averse is the guy not willing to commit his ship to the fight because of some very bad mechanic offering huge advantages, read all the benefits but with NO RISK.

If you're not risk averse you'll bring your boosting ship to the fight, if you're risk averse and not willing to risk loosing your boosting ship then you leave it at the station.
Battlecruisers have enough slots to fit at least one gang link, those should be used more often in gangs for links rather than neut/salvager


The issue is the cost of fitting multiple links atm - the co-processors render any ship useless in a proper fight if it wants to fit 3 links. Fit 1 link to each ship you say? OK, but you only have 3 booster slots (gang / wing / fleet) and one of those requires a really heavy duty skill investment to use.

The fixes to link slots for command and T3 ships will be welcomed with open arms - I look forward to flying on-grid liks myself (and sometimes do already) but T1 battlecruisers will also need to be able to fit multiple links for them to be used a lot.

Utimately, our corp / alliance already has draft fits ready to deal with this change in all our doctrines as we learned long ago this is EVE - Adapt or Die.


I think the T1 battlecruisers will be considered quite useful in their own right post balancing.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ginger Barbarella
#87 - 2013-01-25 18:54:27 UTC
It's clearly not an issue for CCP at this time, so I spent this morning fitting a Loki for OGB, and will be setting up either a Sleip or a Damnation/Absolution this afternoon.

Hate to say it, but if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#88 - 2013-01-25 18:59:07 UTC
All of this talk about off-grid boosting "ruining the game" is absolutely mental. Leadership is one of the most out of the way skills to train, around 10 mil sp, and people are now wanting to get it nerfed because they think their enemies are only winning because they use them?

My corporation, Mentally Assured Destruction, is a high sec war dec corporation that is commonly known for wardecing major alliances. You can check our war reports and see this for yourself.

A few wars we have going on now:
Test
Eve Uni
Nulli Secunda
Undead.
CVA

and in a few weeks we will be permadeccing goons.


This is what we commonly see..... and yes you can see our boosters.

Eve Uni thinks our boosts are unfair

I am an avid reader of all dev blogs, patch notes, and CSM minutes because I have to know what is going on so I can continue to have an edge against the masses. It is not uncommon for us to kill 3 to 5 ships and then our enemies return with a fleet of 50 people.

Test BC's that died

Test Returns with fleet after dying


What I am getting at with all of this is that boosting only makes a difference, and can be noticed, when the users already have an advantage. Eve Uni doesn't complain about our boosters when they have extreme odds. Test didnt complain about our boosters when they had logistics. Too many people as of late have been on this bandwagon to nerf boosters but it won't change how the people that use them fly. If I want to kite I still have to fit nano's. If I have to grab point I still need to overheat. If I want to play station games I still need a buffer. If I want to become unjammable I still need ECCM.


Boosting is and will always be one of the many ways a fleet can gain an advantage over their adversaries.

Current ways of gaining an advantage and their outcome:

ECM: Jam dps, ecm, or logi
ECCM: not jammed as much
Logi: help fleet stay on field longer
Alpha Ships: logi cant deal with alpha damage
Proteus booster: increase sensor strength to not get jammed/jam easier
Legion booster: boost armor stats to stay on field longer
Loki booster: boost kiting tactics to keep out of web range/sig tank
Tengu: boost shield stats to stay on field longer
Blob: Overwhelm enemy
Capitals: out dps/rep enemy
Titan bridge: move entire fleet in seconds
Covert OPs: go undetected
Skill: outsmart enemy <<<<<<<<<<< 90% of a fight

The only time I have ever seen people repeatedly complain about boosting is when they repeatedly accepted fights where they had NO ADVANTAGES listed above but yet wondered why they died. The sad thing about all of this is that one of our biggest complainers, eve uni, has a member on the CSM. Eve uni commonly tells us in local that if we didn't have boosters then we wouldn't have killed them. Yes Eve uni, we killed your Armageddon with t1 MEDIUM guns because we had boosts.

I hope and pray CCP and CCP Fozzie ignore the sore losers on this topic. Since day 1 of eve and LIFE losers have always been looking for excuses as to why they died or lost. Even if boosters are nerfed we will be having a discussion just like this one a year down the road with people saying that its unfair that so and so had this in their fleet.

Simple questions that will help decision making;

Should an EXTREMELY specialized toon with over 20 mil sp not give an advantage to the fleet it is in?

What is the success ratio of the people complaining about the boosters? Do they even understand pvp?

If a tengu booster increases shield ehp shouldnt Pith-A invulns be nerfed too?

Afterburners are the only prop mod that gets better velocity by getting one with a better name. Since that increases speed and helps sig tanking shouldnt it be nerfed along with loki booster?

Did the alliances with on grid boosters win the recent alliance tournament?


If you are reading those and feel like they are taking things too far then you need to also keep your mouth shut on boosting. The 4 boosters are just a few advantage of many in this game and people WILL ALWAYS have advantages. LOSERS will always point fingers BUT it is up to the ones with power to determine who is more full of crap. Just because a portion of the people say something is bad doesn't mean the masses should suffer..... Winners will always be winners and LOSERS will always be looking for excuses.

-Zeus Maximo
Proud CEO of Mentally Assured Destruction

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Klown Walk
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-01-25 19:01:58 UTC
Making them on-grid is not going to make it better, if anything it will get worse. it's still the amount of bonuses you get that's the problem.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#90 - 2013-01-25 22:43:33 UTC
Klown Walk wrote:
Making them on-grid is not going to make it better, if anything it will get worse. it's still the amount of bonuses you get that's the problem.


Its not a problem by any means. Its just another one of the many ways in this sandbox game someone can have an advantage.

If you hate them so much why dont you train up a toon for a year and a half and have boosts. Or wait, are you not wanting to spend the time and money like the boosters did?

You get what you pay for in this game and the amount of time you put in......

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#91 - 2013-01-26 00:03:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
Cearain wrote:
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
Xuse Senna wrote:
These boost allow small/Solo pilots the ability to engage those massive blobs people always complain about xD


Exactly this.




Again solo means 1.

Not 1 + 1 falcon alt; Nor 1 + 1 logistics alt; Nor 1 + 1 booster alt.

The math shouldn't be that hard.


doesn't the math also say that solo PvP = 1 v 1, not 4 v 1?

not trying to rain on your parade, it's just that more often than not the stories and examples we read about here are always "blobs" v 1 and in that sense, true solo PvP isn't even in existence, so at least with an OGB the "1" has a better chance of surviving the "many"

the only change that can be made there has nothing to do with CCP, rather it requires a change of mentality by players.

jmho


o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#92 - 2013-01-26 00:45:32 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
We use command ships for on-grid boosting anyways. Enemy FCs generally don't target them because they have such massive tanks, so it's usually better to go for the logi or dps.



+1

Example:
3 link damnation with 180K + tank... :P

not much DPS, but also hard to kill, so it makes perfect sense to go after the logis as they are always (to my knowledge) much easier to kill and sometimes easier even when receiving reciprocal reps.

o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#93 - 2013-01-26 01:00:41 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Klown Walk wrote:
Making them on-grid is not going to make it better, if anything it will get worse. it's still the amount of bonuses you get that's the problem.


Its not a problem by any means. Its just another one of the many ways in this sandbox game someone can have an advantage.

If you hate them so much why dont you train up a toon for a year and a half and have boosts. Or wait, are you not wanting to spend the time and money like the boosters did?

You get what you pay for in this game and the amount of time you put in......


+1

I happen to agree with the statement
"You get what you pay for in this game and the amount of time you put in" wholeheartedly!!!

3 of my accounts have toons on them with all leadership skills to lvl 5, it was done intentionally, other accounts have pilots that can run the 5 link legion or tengu, again, done intentionally.
A decent gust of wind would likely rip those ships apart simply because of the role they are fit for.

This is not to say that even I don't agree that certain areas need work, because I do, but I also think that it would be horrendous for anything to come in and nullify the time put into those toons and skills simply because people who aren't willing to do the same complain about it. (not everyone of course)

it has long been said in almost every discussion over p2w,plex,mechanics or anything else that "time" in EvE is the basis for everything(condensed), so good call.


on a personal note, I copied your other post to a text file to share with my wing and squad commanders... good info in there for any FC/wing/squad leader.

o/
Celly




Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Klown Walk
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-01-26 01:01:41 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Klown Walk wrote:
Making them on-grid is not going to make it better, if anything it will get worse. it's still the amount of bonuses you get that's the problem.


Its not a problem by any means. Its just another one of the many ways in this sandbox game someone can have an advantage.

If you hate them so much why dont you train up a toon for a year and a half and have boosts. Or wait, are you not wanting to spend the time and money like the boosters did?

You get what you pay for in this game and the amount of time you put in......


I have access to tengu, loki and legion links, the boost amount is broken.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2013-01-26 01:29:54 UTC
Klown Walk wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Klown Walk wrote:
Making them on-grid is not going to make it better, if anything it will get worse. it's still the amount of bonuses you get that's the problem.


Its not a problem by any means. Its just another one of the many ways in this sandbox game someone can have an advantage.

If you hate them so much why dont you train up a toon for a year and a half and have boosts. Or wait, are you not wanting to spend the time and money like the boosters did?

You get what you pay for in this game and the amount of time you put in......


I have access to tengu, loki and legion links, the boost amount is broken.

Which is why that's getting reduced.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#96 - 2013-01-26 01:31:59 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
We use command ships for on-grid boosting anyways. Enemy FCs generally don't target them because they have such massive tanks, so it's usually better to go for the logi or dps.

Boat can eat all the (DPS) that you try to choke him with.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#97 - 2013-01-27 00:27:09 UTC
Celly Smunt wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
Xuse Senna wrote:
These boost allow small/Solo pilots the ability to engage those massive blobs people always complain about xD


Exactly this.




Again solo means 1.

Not 1 + 1 falcon alt; Nor 1 + 1 logistics alt; Nor 1 + 1 booster alt.

The math shouldn't be that hard.


doesn't the math also say that solo PvP = 1 v 1, not 4 v 1?

Celly


There is at least one solo pvper in both cases.

Solo pvp does not always mean 1v1.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#98 - 2013-01-27 00:29:19 UTC
Celly Smunt wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Klown Walk wrote:
Making them on-grid is not going to make it better, if anything it will get worse. it's still the amount of bonuses you get that's the problem.


Its not a problem by any means. Its just another one of the many ways in this sandbox game someone can have an advantage.

If you hate them so much why dont you train up a toon for a year and a half and have boosts. Or wait, are you not wanting to spend the time and money like the boosters did?

You get what you pay for in this game and the amount of time you put in......


+1

I happen to agree with the statement
"You get what you pay for in this game and the amount of time you put in" wholeheartedly!!!




If you want to be competitive, then pay for 2 accounts?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Sairi Katelin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-01-27 01:54:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Sairi Katelin
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
And yeah, CCP have only boosted solo in 3 ways the last few years.
1. Tech 3 Cruiser Boosts

I'm not quite sure how making all your enemies tougher is "helping solo", since by definition, if you have a booster, you aren't solo.
If you have a booster, you aren't "getting better at 1vX". You're just going up to a 2vX fight instead. Yeah, two ships is going to be more effective than just one.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#100 - 2013-01-27 04:37:54 UTC
Sairi Katelin wrote:
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
And yeah, CCP have only boosted solo in 3 ways the last few years.
1. Tech 3 Cruiser Boosts

I'm not quite sure how making all your enemies tougher is "helping solo", since by definition, if you have a booster, you aren't solo.
If you have a booster, you aren't "getting better at 1vX". You're just going up to a 2vX fight instead. Yeah, two ships is going to be more effective than just one.


I agree completely with this, but want to point out that a booster isn't simply a 2vX. It's not a 1vX either. It's... 1+Booster v X. You play and fly differently when there's nobody to come to your aid. And you play and fly differently when you do (and don't!) have a booster.

Anyway: nerf link strength into the ground for both on grid and off grid links.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.