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Invention & T2 BPOs - Will this ever change?
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Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#81 - 2011-10-10 16:13:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Skyly wrote:
Considerable uncertainty factor in Invention?

I can point you to t2 BPO owners that have invested billions in a T2 BPO, only to have it nerfed the next patch. The price of the BPO drops entirely and they can't produce the stuff for a profit. Also, if people aren't willing to buy the item you produce, why the hell would they buy a BPC for it?

With invention if something gets nerfed you can just start inventing something else.

But you are talking about people that bought the BPOs in an unwise investment. That's their issue. The current owner can STILL produce the item at a cost lower than inventors. Whether the item is saleable is something they should have looked at before purchase. Either way, doesnt change the fact that they removed the feature, but not the items, which is crazy. It's like removing freighters and saying "oh but you guys already with freighters can keep them"



which would be fair. i mean i still have large rigs on a few interceptors. they didnt remove them for me, i just sucked it up. the same as none lottry winners had to.
t2 bpos are avalible to everyone with enough isk. that shouldnt change as it has little effect on the market or invention

OMG when can i get a pic here
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2011-10-10 16:19:07 UTC
There is no point in this thread, to be honest. It come up every month, always with the same arguments and counter-arguments, and CCP never showed a sign of changing their mind about the subject. Might as well stop right now.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#83 - 2011-10-10 16:21:15 UTC
a t2 bpo produces some hilariously insanely low profit on the invested capital of like 0.5% per month (as in one half of one percent) because idiots are paying 5 years profit for the things

anyone who owns a t2 bpo is functionally ********

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2011-10-10 16:22:33 UTC
basically anyone who is producing off a t2 bpo has so hideously overpaid for their miniscule margin savings (either in isk or in opportunity cost) that you should take pity on their broken brain and be glad you're not them

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Ione Dee
Lucror Commerce Investment Corporation
#85 - 2011-10-10 16:51:27 UTC
How about they just make T1 research actually affect T2 BPC invention.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2011-10-10 16:55:59 UTC
Still, I'm grateful for this thread. It made me think about a scheme to get some isk with almost zero effort.

Thank you, OP.
Hellenna Cain
Omega Commercial Products
#87 - 2011-10-10 17:07:17 UTC
The only players that object to removing T2 BPOs are the ones that have them.

And they have the audacity to say that invention is better.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2011-10-10 17:09:31 UTC
Hellenna Cain wrote:
The only players that object to removing T2 BPOs are the ones that have them.

And they have the audacity to say that invention is better.


i don't have a t2 bpo and specifically recommended goonswarm never buy them by demonstrating how low the profitability of the things are

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#89 - 2011-10-10 17:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
But you are talking about people that bought the BPOs in an unwise investment. That's their issue. The current owner can STILL produce the item at a cost lower than inventors. Whether the item is saleable is something they should have looked at before purchase.
Did you miss the “nerfed next patch” bit?

If that's the perception you're going to adopt, then no, the statistical certainty of invention is not a considerable uncertainty — it is in fact the exact opposite — and you are no longer allowed to scoff at the opportunity cost of owning a BPO, which in turn means that the supposed additional profit compared to invention will, in practical term, turn out to be a massive loss.

So no, they can't produce the item at a lower cost because of the immense amortisation costs of that investment.
Hellenna Cain wrote:
The only players that object to removing T2 BPOs are the ones that have them.
Patently false. But sure, if you want to take that route: the only ones who want T2 BPOs removed are the ones who have no idea how manufacturing works, and who need someone to blame because they cannot bear the thought that it is their own failure that is bringing them down… Roll
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2011-10-10 17:10:38 UTC
so while i would enjoy t2 bpos being removed just because it would cause hilarious amounts of drama they are effectively irrelevant at this point as anyone who owns one had all the profit they could ever make on it stripped away in the purchase price

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2011-10-10 17:13:58 UTC
i'm not joking about the profitability level, I think I was looking at a slepnir bpo that cost as much as a titan bpo or something and produced less than a billion a month in an amarr tier 3 station upgraded for making t2 ships

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#92 - 2011-10-10 17:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: VaMei
Hellenna Cain wrote:
The only players that object to removing T2 BPOs are the ones that have them.

And they have the audacity to say that invention is better.


I don't have a T2 BPO. My corp doesn't have one, or access to one. I object to removing them.

I object to the lottery that randomly handed them out, and any method of adding new ones, but when it comes to the ones that have been in game for years, any perceived advantage to owning one is factored into the price of buying one, or the opportunity cost of not selling one.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2011-10-10 18:20:24 UTC
remove the T2 bpos
give everyone that has a t2 BPO 400 max run, max ME/PE BPC copies of said item

this should be 1-3 years worth of always building the item and at the cheapest cost possible.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#94 - 2011-10-10 18:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sable Moran
This dead horse again.... Can't you leave it be already, this is way beyond desecration.

Simetraz wrote:
But as you say the players have 0 information about how many of each type of BPO is out there


Actually we do. These numbers are from memory so they may not be exact but the magnitude is correct.

When the T2 BPO lottery began we (the players) were given 8 BPO's for ships and about 20 for modules. In the end these number were a bit higher, 20+ BPO's for ships, 50-60 (80?) for modules and 100 (might have been 200) for ammo.

These numbers have been stated by the devs in a devblog or forum post, I don't remember which anymore.

Note that some of those BPO's aren't there anymore for various reasons. Some have been blown up, some have disappeared with permanently banned accounts (20-25 alone in the aftermath of the POS exploit according to 'the other forum thou shalt not name'), and some simply are forgotten in some obscure hangar somewhere because they are not worth the trouble.


Did a bit of searching and found this post by Oveur: post. The relevant bit is this:

CCP Oveur wrote:
There are more than 10.000 out there


Not a by type number but something.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#95 - 2011-10-10 19:04:34 UTC
CCP has a history of not removing items after removing the ability to gain them. Its part of the awesome free market thing we got going on here.

Go look at pretty much any 'micro' sized mod. They still exist, but only because they haven't all been blown up yet.

If you want T2 BPOs removed from the game, do it yourself. Its totally possible, if you work hard enough to make it happen, since it seems most T2 BPO holders don't actually want them, and should be willing to sell you the BPO for enough to recoup their losses. Do remember, their loses are VERY large, considering the price of the BPO.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#96 - 2011-10-10 19:15:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Hellenna Cain wrote:
The only players that object to removing T2 BPOs are the ones that have them.
Patently false. But sure, if you want to take that route: the only ones who want T2 BPOs removed are the ones who have no idea how manufacturing works, and who need someone to blame because they cannot bear the thought that it is their own failure that is bringing them down… Roll

Come on, it would be fair for you to say "the only ones that was T2 BPOS removed are the ones that don't have them", but theres no needto go saying people dont understand manufacturing, just cos they don't share your viewpoint. I think this thread has shown that the matter is fairly heavily split with relatively good arguments both for and against.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#97 - 2011-10-10 23:06:34 UTC
Hellenna Cain wrote:
Regardless if T2 BPO's are an advantage or not. The should be removed.


  • if It is an advantage, it should be removed to balance the game.


  • If it is not an advantage and invention is better, then tech 2 BPO's are not needed and will not be missed.


I would favor change them to a max run bpc with the same ME and PE to ensure enough training time for the untrained to catch up.


Im game. If everyone else has to work to get their T2 Bpcs, the current holders of T2 BPOs should too. Its pretty unfair that T2 researchers are handling the only chance based function (couldnt think of a better word) IN THE GAME (where it applies to manufacturing etc) when there are people with the BPOs to build those items and dont have to deal with stupid chances.

Better yet, make it so the BPOs have a chance to build the item based on the chance to not build the item in question.

I mean seriously, think of how that whole fun chance based thing would be if it wasnt just invention that had it. If all industrial jobs had it. How fun would it be if all jobs to build a ship had a chance to fail and consume the resources without getting anything back. Or for that matter, if mining lasers had a chance to fail at the end of the cycle. Or weapons. Wouldnt THAT be fun?

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#98 - 2011-10-10 23:19:29 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Hi
Is the Invention & T2 BPO situation ever likely to change?
The problem being that where originally BPOs were given out, which can be researched and all that jazz, but now only invention works giving you some crappy ME copy.
This means that if you don't own a T2 BPO, you will NEVER be able to produce at a price that is competetive to an alliance with a T2 BPO.

It doesnt even matter if it's ridiculously hard to produce a BPO, make it a 1 in 1,000,000 chance on invention or something, but either BPOs need to start working their way back into the game, or the existing T2 BPOs need to go, because without that you are basically saying there's no point in working towards industry since you'll never be able to beat the already exising industial corps.



Yea. thanks to t2 BPO's still existing a really cool section of the game is a complete waste of SP.

CCP take t2 BPO's out of the game, the guys who have had them had there run, and its time has ended.

Alot of intelligent people play this game and see invention as something worth investing in. Do not make it a waste of time any longer.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Gank'aho
One within we are
#99 - 2011-10-10 23:20:22 UTC
Posting to confirm OP is an idiot.
Also, eve isn't fair, T2BPO's don't give an advantage, and newbs cry.Lol
Carry on.

Long story short, if you want the "alleged" advantage of T2BPO's buy them, they only cost billions.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#100 - 2011-10-10 23:30:40 UTC
Gank'aho wrote:
Posting to confirm OP is an idiot.
Also, eve isn't fair, T2BPO's don't give an advantage, and newbs cry.Lol
Carry on.

Long story short, if you want the "alleged" advantage of T2BPO's buy them, they only cost billions.


Posting to confirm you have no idea what your talking about.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro