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Invention & T2 BPOs - Will this ever change?
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1 - 2011-10-10 11:06:37 UTC
Hi
Is the Invention & T2 BPO situation ever likely to change?
The problem being that where originally BPOs were given out, which can be researched and all that jazz, but now only invention works giving you some crappy ME copy.
This means that if you don't own a T2 BPO, you will NEVER be able to produce at a price that is competetive to an alliance with a T2 BPO.

It doesnt even matter if it's ridiculously hard to produce a BPO, make it a 1 in 1,000,000 chance on invention or something, but either BPOs need to start working their way back into the game, or the existing T2 BPOs need to go, because without that you are basically saying there's no point in working towards industry since you'll never be able to beat the already exising industial corps.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#2 - 2011-10-10 11:10:33 UTC
you can out produce any t2 bp through invention, which will net you way more profit in the long run.

OMG when can i get a pic here
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#3 - 2011-10-10 11:15:23 UTC
How can you out produce t2 BPOs?
A T2 BPO with 50 ME is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper than a -4 ME BPC, on top of the fact that it has already cost you to do the invention to produce the BPC in the first place.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#4 - 2011-10-10 11:18:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
How can you out produce t2 BPOs?
A T2 BPO with 50 ME is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper than a -4 ME BPC, on top of the fact that it has already cost you to do the invention to produce the BPC in the first place.



pretty easily.

a t2 bpo runs in 1 build slot. if you use teh other 10 slots, you can out produce the t2 bpo easily. each item maybe slighlty higher build cost, but your making way more of them, so over all you make more isk

OMG when can i get a pic here
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#5 - 2011-10-10 11:22:09 UTC
I think youv'e missed the point. I'm not talking about build time, I'm talking about cost.

If it costs me 50 mil to produce something (including invention cost) but a T2 BPO can produce it at 45 mil, they can just sell the product at 49.5 mil, and make 4.5 mil profit per item, and I can't possibly undercut them, as I am totally unable to get my manufacture cost down low enough to make profit. And it's not though a fault of my own, I've produce the BPC the way the game intends, but because they got a BPO back in the day, and that was never removed, they automatically win the profit battle.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Big Bad Mofo
Doomheim
#6 - 2011-10-10 11:22:30 UTC
t2 bpos should of been removed from the game when invention was errr invented...ofc the people owning them paid handsomely for it however...
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#7 - 2011-10-10 11:24:39 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I think youv'e missed the point. I'm not talking about build time, I'm talking about cost.

If it costs me 50 mil to produce something (including invention cost) but a T2 BPO can produce it at 45 mil, they can just sell the product at 49.5 mil, and make 4.5 mil profit per item, and I can't possibly undercut them, as I am totally unable to get my manufacture cost down low enough to make profit. And it's not though a fault of my own, I've produce the BPC the way the game intends, but because they got a BPO back in the day, and that was never removed, they automatically win the profit battle.



i understand fully what you mean.
t2 bpo produces say 1000 items / month netting you about 500
t2 bpc's produce say 750 per slot so x 10, netting you a bit less per item, but way more over all.

i make a lot of t2 items via invention, its profitible, very if you do it right

OMG when can i get a pic here
Arbiter Reborn
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-10-10 11:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Arbiter Reborn
yeh allot of t2 ships are almost impossible to build at a profit allot are built at a loss. most t2 items are rediculously underpriced

i think generally too thing are way to cheap in eve atm, t2 bpos would be a massive boost to the market
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#9 - 2011-10-10 11:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
How can you out produce t2 BPOs?
Volume — the thing that already makes invention outproduce BPOs by a large margin in any area where T2 manufacturing is profitable.
Lucas Kell wrote:
Is the Invention & T2 BPO situation ever likely to change?
Since there's no actual need for it to change, no. Not particularly likely.

Also: in before Akita T and the reason this tired complaint does not hold water.
Arbiter Reborn
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-10-10 11:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Arbiter Reborn
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
How can you out produce t2 BPOs?
Volume — the thing that already makes invention outproduce BPOs by a large margin in any area where T2 manufacturing is profitable.
Lucas Kell wrote:
Is the Invention & T2 BPO situation ever likely to change?
Since there's no actual need for it to change, no. Not particularly likely.



the need is in the fact that things are too cheap, and therefore unproifitbale for those who wernt lucky in a lottery

your argument is invalid because so what if you can produce 50 sleipnirs a month if you loose 10 mill on every one
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#11 - 2011-10-10 11:28:57 UTC
Arbiter Reborn wrote:
yeh allot of t2 ships are almost impossible to build at a profit allot are built at a loss. most t2 items are rediculously underpriced

i think generally too thing are way to cheap in eve atm, t2 bpos would be a massive boost to the market



could try inventing teh ships that were introduced after t2 bpo's stopped. you know the ones

OMG when can i get a pic here
Arbiter Reborn
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-10-10 11:29:53 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Arbiter Reborn wrote:
yeh allot of t2 ships are almost impossible to build at a profit allot are built at a loss. most t2 items are rediculously underpriced

i think generally too thing are way to cheap in eve atm, t2 bpos would be a massive boost to the market



could try inventing teh ships that were introduced after t2 bpo's stopped. you know the ones



yeh sure, i mean i do. but then why should i have to do that
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#13 - 2011-10-10 11:30:13 UTC
Arbiter Reborn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
How can you out produce t2 BPOs?
Volume — the thing that already makes invention outproduce BPOs by a large margin in any area where T2 manufacturing is profitable.
Lucas Kell wrote:
Is the Invention & T2 BPO situation ever likely to change?
Since there's no actual need for it to change, no. Not particularly likely.



the need is in the fact that things are too cheap, and therefore unproifitbale for those who wernt lucky in a lottery



the market is over stocked atm, thats due imo to reduced players. look at the online numbers. its not the bpo's fault ccp have shafted the game in teh last year

OMG when can i get a pic here
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#14 - 2011-10-10 11:32:07 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I think youv'e missed the point. I'm not talking about build time, I'm talking about cost.

If it costs me 50 mil to produce something (including invention cost) but a T2 BPO can produce it at 45 mil, they can just sell the product at 49.5 mil, and make 4.5 mil profit per item, and I can't possibly undercut them, as I am totally unable to get my manufacture cost down low enough to make profit. And it's not though a fault of my own, I've produce the BPC the way the game intends, but because they got a BPO back in the day, and that was never removed, they automatically win the profit battle.



i understand fully what you mean.
t2 bpo produces say 1000 items / month netting you about 500
t2 bpc's produce say 750 per slot so x 10, netting you a bit less per item, but way more over all.

i make a lot of t2 items via invention, its profitible, very if you do it right

Then clearly you are producing items that don't have people competign witha T2 BPO.
Not only can they still produce copies so they can produce just as many, they dont pay invention costs, dont risk invention failure, and can sell at a price you simply can't match. It's nto that you would make little profit, its that you would make no profit at all.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#15 - 2011-10-10 11:32:51 UTC
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2011-10-10 11:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Arbiter Reborn wrote:
the need is in the fact that things are too cheap, and therefore unproifitbale for those who wernt lucky in a lottery
If things are too cheap, then it's because they are so over-produced that demand can't keep up, which means that BPOs are not to blame — they are far too few to generate that amount of production.
Quote:
your argument is invalid because so what if you can produce 50 sleipnirs a month if you loose 10 mill on every one
That doesn't make my argument invalid — it only means that you need to be more market rational. Removing BPOs would not solve that problem because they are not the cause of it.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Then clearly you are producing items that don't have people competign witha T2 BPO.
Not only can they still produce copies
…ok, stop right there. No. No they can't. If there is any way to turn your T2 BPO into absolute putrefied sewage, it is to use it for copying. Even suggesting such a bone-headed move means you haven't quite investigated what those BPOs let you do…
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#17 - 2011-10-10 11:36:20 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Arbiter Reborn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
How can you out produce t2 BPOs?
Volume — the thing that already makes invention outproduce BPOs by a large margin in any area where T2 manufacturing is profitable.
Lucas Kell wrote:
Is the Invention & T2 BPO situation ever likely to change?
Since there's no actual need for it to change, no. Not particularly likely.



the need is in the fact that things are too cheap, and therefore unproifitbale for those who wernt lucky in a lottery



the market is over stocked atm, thats due imo to reduced players. look at the online numbers. its not the bpo's fault ccp have shafted the game in teh last year

All I'm saying is, they should bring back BPOs so everyone has a fighting chance. The player base is never going to grow if everything good is owned by the long standing alliances and noone new has a chance to get the same thing.

I mean, from a newbie point of view, whats the point of going into T2 production, when you know theres a large portion of the market you won't be able to compete in? Sure you can produce the new stuff, but why should you have to be limited? It should be fair across the board for everyone. This is the problem you get when the rules get changed half way through.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#18 - 2011-10-10 11:36:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I think youv'e missed the point. I'm not talking about build time, I'm talking about cost.

If it costs me 50 mil to produce something (including invention cost) but a T2 BPO can produce it at 45 mil, they can just sell the product at 49.5 mil, and make 4.5 mil profit per item, and I can't possibly undercut them, as I am totally unable to get my manufacture cost down low enough to make profit. And it's not though a fault of my own, I've produce the BPC the way the game intends, but because they got a BPO back in the day, and that was never removed, they automatically win the profit battle.



i understand fully what you mean.
t2 bpo produces say 1000 items / month netting you about 500
t2 bpc's produce say 750 per slot so x 10, netting you a bit less per item, but way more over all.

i make a lot of t2 items via invention, its profitible, very if you do it right

Then clearly you are producing items that don't have people competign witha T2 BPO.
Not only can they still produce copies so they can produce just as many, they dont pay invention costs, dont risk invention failure, and can sell at a price you simply can't match. It's nto that you would make little profit, its that you would make no profit at all.


no the items i producing do have t2 bpo's. i just out produce them and rely on volume of items to make the isk.

OMG when can i get a pic here
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#19 - 2011-10-10 11:39:01 UTC
Big Bad Mofo wrote:
t2 bpos should of been removed from the game when invention was errr invented...ofc the people owning them paid handsomely for it however...

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
#20 - 2011-10-10 11:40:14 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Then clearly you are producing items that don't have people competign witha T2 BPO.
Not only can they still produce copies so they can produce just as many, they dont pay invention costs, dont risk invention failure, and can sell at a price you simply can't match. It's nto that you would make little profit, its that you would make no profit at all.



1. it takes longer to make a 1 run copy from a T2 BPO than it does to build 1 item from a T2 BPO

2. Items with a T2 BPO are more profitable to invent and build than items without a T2 BPO. If you want proof compare the profit per item of a cap recharger II compared to a salvager II. Even after datacores, failed invention attempts, and extra materials, there is still more profit on cap recharger IIs than salvager IIs.

The only real advantage a T2 BPO provides is that you can set a 30 day build job instead of having to restart jobs every few hours.
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