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Do they all believe?

First post
Author
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-01-24 03:16:51 UTC
So I was reading some of the EVE novels and the shorter stories by Tony Gonzales, and I was wondering why are the Amarr convinced? I mean I imagine that some are truly into the religion, but it is hard to believe that every Amarrian believes as deeply as the novels portray the Amarrian people do. Not comparing things to RL, but even the Romans did not have that kind of feelings for their emperor. So are the characters in the fiction just really into it, or do most Amarrian citizens feel that way about things?
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-01-24 03:44:54 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
why are the Amarr convinced? I mean I imagine that some are truly into the religion, but it is hard to believe that every Amarrian believes as deeply as the novels portray the Amarrian people do.

Well, not all are horribly devout, but they all consider themself religious. In a rigid theocratic society, you can't really object to the religion.

You have the fervent religious people. We'll look at several. They all believe in God. But they all behave as though their God is different - one might be fire and brimstone, one might be peace and love, another is a maltheist, and so on. They're all following the 'party line' as far as identifying as believers, so they're encouraged. "They're fellow believers!" "But they don't agree with you on a single thing!" "They're fellow believers and we'll stand by them!"

You have the people who treat it as a nice fable - there are atheistic red letter christians, for instance, who don't think Jesus was any more divine than MLK Jr., but they think he was pretty awesome, and they can still talk about religion without tripping too many red flags because, again, "Fellow believer!", so really they do not stand out - they go to church so they're in. Yay them.

You have the people who go to church but really don't give a fig. Ask them and they'll say they believe, and they'll use all the right buzz words and tell you what 'God said'. But they've never really given it any thought or even care. They go to church too, we all saw them at the church picnic, so they must be good people. They're in. yay.

You have the people who actively don't believe. They're heathens, and the Amarr theocratic government actually has the power to make them vanish for not saying the right things.

You have those odd people down the street with turbans.. the Amarrian faith is pretty clear what you should do to them. Lovingly put them in shackles and spend your days working them in a factory while trying to convert them.

So either you actually believe in the state religion.. or you just say the right words that make it appear that you believe in the state religion, because an investigation into your faith is really just too much of a bother when you can avoid the whole thing by saying your prayers. Your language is still going to sound the same. The ideas you are exposed to are going to be similar. How many people today believe in ghosts or demons or angels or what have you, even if they don't specifically have any religious ideas about them?
There is an entire spectrum in between the two. And you have a small handful of dissenters that don't fit in; they are hammered down or removed from society.

Look at an insular church organization. Why are they convinced? Because that's the only game in town, knowledgewise, and even if you have doubts you are unlikely to work at the knowledge hygiene that would remove you from the faithful out of fear of consequences. If you do, there's a pair of loving hands with a collar just for you.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#3 - 2013-01-24 03:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Aza Ebanu wrote:
So I was reading some of the EVE novels and the shorter stories by Tony Gonzales, and I was wondering why are the Amarr convinced? I mean I imagine that some are truly into the religion, but it is hard to believe that every Amarrian believes as deeply as the novels portray the Amarrian people do. Not comparing things to RL, but even the Romans did not have that kind of feelings for their emperor. So are the characters in the fiction just really into it, or do most Amarrian citizens feel that way about things?


Most Amarrians are just your regular old joes really. All you really need to do is look at Kasroth and a few others in the Empyrian Age to see that not everyone is so full-on religion, without giving away any spoilers. Other characters are truly your faithful servants who believe whole heartily in Amarr, but that's not the case for everyone. Most likely just go about their day to day lives, mouth their prayers to Amarr and try and live the way Amarr wants them to, like any good religious person in a society built on religious dogma, and just live their lives.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Horatius Caul
Kitzless
#4 - 2013-01-24 04:13:35 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
So I was reading some of the EVE novels and the shorter stories by Tony Gonzales, and I was wondering why are the Amarr convinced? I mean I imagine that some are truly into the religion, but it is hard to believe that every Amarrian believes as deeply as the novels portray the Amarrian people do. Not comparing things to RL, but even the Romans did not have that kind of feelings for their emperor. So are the characters in the fiction just really into it, or do most Amarrian citizens feel that way about things?

Are you reading the same novels as I am? TEA and T1 pretty much definitively established that very few, if any people in the leadership of Amarr are actually faithful.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-01-24 07:15:35 UTC
Horatius Caul wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
So I was reading some of the EVE novels and the shorter stories by Tony Gonzales, and I was wondering why are the Amarr convinced? I mean I imagine that some are truly into the religion, but it is hard to believe that every Amarrian believes as deeply as the novels portray the Amarrian people do. Not comparing things to RL, but even the Romans did not have that kind of feelings for their emperor. So are the characters in the fiction just really into it, or do most Amarrian citizens feel that way about things?

Are you reading the same novels as I am? TEA and T1 pretty much definitively established that very few, if any people in the leadership of Amarr are actually faithful.


Yeah pretty much what I concluded after TEA. I was reading the lore about the "Liberal Holders". They seemed to want to take Amarr in a different way. The Pax kinda strays away from a lot of things the current Amarr empire bases its mission too. Thanks for the info.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2013-01-24 12:06:52 UTC
Please keep in mind that Templar One and the Empyrean Age only touch on a few of the leaders of the Amarr Empire, some of whom have... unusual circumstances to consider.

The majority of the current Heirs, for example, can be considered to be varying degrees of devout, with Yonis Ardishapur and (the reformed) Aritcio Kor-Azor on one side (though obviously with contrasting ways of expressing their faith) and Catiz Tash-Murkon on the other side (though even she is quite a bit more religious than most; she'd be what I'd call "politically religious").

There are definitely people in the upper echelons of Amarr society who are atheist or otherwise non-religious or (in examples like Karsoth) heretical. But they are the exception rather than the rule. Most individuals in Amarr society at minimum pay lip service to the religion, while most ordinary people are similar to people in highly religious countries, where religion is a simple fact of life. Questioning it for them would be akin to questioning why you stop on a red light and go on a green one; it's simply the way it it.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#7 - 2013-01-24 13:31:14 UTC
You also have to keep in mind the environment of the Amarr religion, especially for the True Amarr.

You are told that you are Gods Chosen People from birth. Your entire society is structured around it. You can't escape it because the religion is literally everywhere.

This is a religion which has been growing for 20,000 years and has been the only centrepiece religion in all of that time. Think about that time scale. That is 10x the amount of time that Christianity has actually existed, and it hasn't had any competitors that couldn't be wiped out.

And the religion is not one of ignorance and scientific illiteracy. You are not asked to believe in spite of the evidence. You are, instead, asked to believe and the evidence and knowledge of the universe is considered part of the understanding of God. If some fact arises that disputes scripture, then it is debated amongst the upper ranks by theologians who are hundreds of years old -at least-, quietly, and if it is found to be indisputably true then it is simply added to the cannon as a part of scripture. If it is discovered that it contracted an earlier part of the scientific cannon, the old part is quietly discarded, the fact that we have a better understanding of God's creation is celebrated, and everyone moves on.

The lower ranks of the society are not asked to fully understand scripture, because that is impossible. They don't have hundreds of years to consider everything, and God does command you to get on with things, after all. You show up to pray at the temple at a regular time, do it in a prescribed manner because the God of the Amarr is not a god that requires you to know why you do things, just that you do things properly. Those who are tasked with knowing why things are done, sometimes THEY grow cynical, but they keep their mouths shut because they are already, by definition, in a position of authority, and no one is going to jeopardize that by spouting open heresy or advocating atheism.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#8 - 2013-01-25 06:41:14 UTC
Horatius Caul wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
So I was reading some of the EVE novels and the shorter stories by Tony Gonzales, and I was wondering why are the Amarr convinced? I mean I imagine that some are truly into the religion, but it is hard to believe that every Amarrian believes as deeply as the novels portray the Amarrian people do. Not comparing things to RL, but even the Romans did not have that kind of feelings for their emperor. So are the characters in the fiction just really into it, or do most Amarrian citizens feel that way about things?

Are you reading the same novels as I am? TEA and T1 pretty much definitively established that very few, if any people in the leadership of Amarr are actually faithful.


Let's hold TEA up as the standard by which all Amarrian devout are measured, eh?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Horatius Caul
Kitzless
#9 - 2013-01-25 18:22:56 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Horatius Caul wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
So I was reading some of the EVE novels and the shorter stories by Tony Gonzales, and I was wondering why are the Amarr convinced? I mean I imagine that some are truly into the religion, but it is hard to believe that every Amarrian believes as deeply as the novels portray the Amarrian people do. Not comparing things to RL, but even the Romans did not have that kind of feelings for their emperor. So are the characters in the fiction just really into it, or do most Amarrian citizens feel that way about things?

Are you reading the same novels as I am? TEA and T1 pretty much definitively established that very few, if any people in the leadership of Amarr are actually faithful.


Let's hold TEA up as the standard by which all Amarrian devout are measured, eh?

Considering the OP was talking about how Amarr faithful are portrayed in the books? Yes, let's.

I personally think the book's portrayal of Amarr is extremely questionable.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-01-26 01:09:39 UTC
Horatius Caul wrote:
I personally think the book's portrayal of [insert anything you like] is extremely questionable.


My opinion.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

AstraPardus
Earthside Mixlabs
#11 - 2013-01-26 13:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: AstraPardus
I've only gotten about 25 pages deep into TEA last night when I was soaking in the bath, so I imagine I'll have to carefully analyze what I read.

Aside from that, my impression of Amarr and faith is no different than my experience of growing up in a Catholic family (as well as getting to know the Catholics in the family I married into): Some folks are REALLY in it and the rest are paying lip service and participating for their own reasons...some are very very bad people with very very bad reasons.

But do they all believe? I imagine that they must, to a degree. As others said...Amarr are raised with the understanding that they're God's chosen! How does that not get right into your head and make you feel larger than life, unless you're a hardcore intellectual? I imagine that the vast majority of the simple folk, who are not following a heretical or divergent sect, are very much believers. People in power, however...it seems to me that it is in human nature to attain power and feel as a god in oneself. Most people who achieve some manner of importance must invariably scoff at 'God's will' and insert their will in its stead, claiming no different.
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