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T3 logi and their crap range.
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Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-01-23 23:25:15 UTC
Jumping through a gate and NOT being able to rep someone I think really gimps this subsystem.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#22 - 2013-01-23 23:38:19 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Jumping through a gate and NOT being able to rep someone I think really gimps this subsystem.


A bit of range added 10-14km range isn't too bad imo. (my numbers might be off as to what it currently is at)

By the way, Hi Garr!
Siobhan MacLeary
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-01-24 01:25:35 UTC
The point of T3 cruisers is not to do EVERYTHING better than the specialized T2 ships, but do do MANY things with a reasonable amount of competency.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-01-24 01:28:58 UTC
agreed. But the current range of the T3's logi ability is not 'a reasonable amount of competency'.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#25 - 2013-01-24 01:52:03 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I posted this same thread last week...

T3 Rep ranges should NOT be anywhere near the ranges of t1 or t2 logi ships... but they definitely should be longer than 6-8 km's.

In my opinion, the logi subsystem needs two things adjusted:
1.) Increase the ship's max number of targets by +2.
2.) Provide a 40% bonus to rep range / subsystem level. This would result in reps that have a 18-24 km range, which is short, but not soo prohibitively short that the ship becomes almost useless for RR.


I don't know how many targets a T3 with logi sub can lock, so I'll withhold judgement pertaining to that. As far as the range, I can agree with that. I'm usually against the buffing of T3's, but I can see that some of the subs are simply lacking and need to be brought up (perhaps not quite) to par, but enough to be useful in their own right. T2 needs its role, but having useless subs doesn't make a lot of sense.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#26 - 2013-01-24 09:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
Dread Operative wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
He believes the Adaptive Augmenter is specifically for spider tanking only and not to use as dedicated logistics.

Please, do explain how a resist bonus helps your rep another ship.

Or, this is a spider tanking sub, designed to be used to its greatest effect when working with other T3s with the same sub combination...


It was already addressed above about the rep bonus, but I'll add on, that since it is a defensive subsystem, it would make sense that it has some sort of defensive properties. IE resistance bonus.

It's a simple question:

Does the sub work best with other T3s with the same type of subsystem in or not?

I maintain that its intended purpose is for spider tanking, the only system in the whole of EvE designed for it. Tanking in the manner is even more effective than local reps, due in no small part to that beefy 5% resist bonus.

As far as I am concerned however, the price for that advantage is that you need to be on top of your rep-mate, just like any other spider tanking ship. Why should T3s get yet another benefit over other ships? If you want a small range buff, then I would say be prepared for q reduction in the resist bonus as a trade off.

Friends
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#27 - 2013-01-24 10:02:47 UTC
They get the 5% resist bonus because the logi subsys gives +1 high slot (which is away from either lows or mids), meaning that it would tank considerably less than with other subsystems. Resist bonus balances this slot layout, but you still end with much less EHP than using buffer subsystem.

.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#28 - 2013-01-24 12:23:26 UTC
Roime wrote:
They get the 5% resist bonus because the logi subsys gives +1 high slot (which is away from either lows or mids), meaning that it would tank considerably less than with other subsystems. Resist bonus balances this slot layout, but you still end with much less EHP than using buffer subsystem.

Ok. You have pairs of two tengus:
One pair has the amplification sub, giving up to 50% extra output from the pithum A-type medium shield booster tats dishing out local reps.
The other pair are fitted exactly the same and have the same skills, but they are using the adaptive sub and a pithum A-type medium shield transferer instead. So they have up to 25% higher resists and they rep each other for up to 50% more as well.

In this situation, which ships can tank more incoming dps?

Friends
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#29 - 2013-01-24 12:40:29 UTC
Of course resists help, that's why T2 logi > T1. You're just stuck on this spider tanking idea, forgetting completely that logis work in pairs or groups because they rarely can fit any viable local tank to heal themselves in combat, and often rely on energy transfers to keep the reps singing.

Having the resist bonus does not mean that they couldn't rep other ships than each others, it simply compensates for the fact that RR subsys loses a tank slot that could be filled with buffer or resists for a hi slot to accommodate the required RRs and energy transfers.





.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#30 - 2013-01-24 16:47:17 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I posted this same thread last week...

T3 Rep ranges should NOT be anywhere near the ranges of t1 or t2 logi ships... but they definitely should be longer than 6-8 km's.

In my opinion, the logi subsystem needs two things adjusted:
1.) Increase the ship's max number of targets by +2.
2.) Provide a 40% bonus to rep range / subsystem level. This would result in reps that have a 18-24 km range, which is short, but not soo prohibitively short that the ship becomes almost useless for RR.


I don't know how many targets a T3 with logi sub can lock, so I'll withhold judgement pertaining to that. As far as the range, I can agree with that. I'm usually against the buffing of T3's, but I can see that some of the subs are simply lacking and need to be brought up (perhaps not quite) to par, but enough to be useful in their own right. T2 needs its role, but having useless subs doesn't make a lot of sense.


The logi subsystem provides 5 max targets.... This is a bit short...
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#31 - 2013-01-24 17:07:09 UTC
Roime wrote:
You're just stuck on this spider tanking idea, forgetting completely that logis work in pairs or groups because they rarely can fit any viable local tank to heal themselves in combat, and often rely on energy transfers to keep the reps singing.

Having the resist bonus does not mean that they couldn't rep other ships than each others, it simply compensates for the fact that RR subsys loses a tank slot that could be filled with buffer or resists for a hi slot to accommodate the required RRs and energy transfers.

Relying on each other to stay alive. Mutual repair... Hmmm...
My point is the purpose of the Augmented sub is spider tanking. It's not there to keep fleets alive, just a couple of your friends who are doing the same for you. Thats why it also doesn't let you target as many objects as a dedicated Logistics ship. (About half in fact.) I'm not saying that It can't be used as one if needs be. I am saying that it's not the intended purpose. Thats why the resist bonus is there and not a transfer range bonus.

It's not losing a mid tanking slot for a high slot, the high slot IS the tanking slot.

Friends
AyayaPanda
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-01-24 17:10:44 UTC
and why o why there's no HIC subsystem for T3 Pirate
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#33 - 2013-01-24 19:15:01 UTC
Giving a T3 logi 12k instead of 6k is not making it better then T2 or event T1 logi with it's 74k range. The problem with this discussion is the facts support both arguments, so while it does promote spider tanking it also promotes standard logi, one side of the discussion is to pig headed to see that side though. (With their infinite knowledge of PVP or life outside of plexs and missions)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#34 - 2013-01-24 19:53:40 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
Giving a T3 logi 12k instead of 6k is not making it better then T2 or event T1 logi with it's 74k range. The problem with this discussion is the facts support both arguments, so while it does promote spider tanking it also promotes standard logi, one side of the discussion is to pig headed to see that side though. (With their infinite knowledge of PVP or life outside of plexs and missions)


It's a secondary bonus for "spider tanking"?

To be honest I have NEVER seen spider tanking tier 3's.... Furthermore, the only time I've seen Logi tier 3's is when WE fielded them in the Alliance Tournaments.

5 max targets is very small for spider tanking & Logi, and 8 km rep range is very small for spider tanking & Logi...

In general, that system is used only because a 5% resist bonus is VERY powerful.... but the "secondary" benefits of that defensive system (to RR) is very weird... perhaps the "increased rep range" and extra locked targets should be tied to an alternative subsystem...

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#35 - 2013-01-24 20:09:54 UTC
say.. 12km would be fine i guess.

They work brilliantly atm though.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-01-24 20:26:09 UTC
As someone who really hates big piles of ships directly on top of each other for both cosmetic and fiction reasons, I think that remote rep modules should have a slight range buff in general.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-01-24 21:10:23 UTC
I would be bloody upset if ccp got rid of that bonus on t3's. All you noobs who think it can't be used as a dedicated logistics ship need some more eft work/more isk.

...infact scratch that, they're horrible and no one should ever use one mkay?

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-01-24 21:41:19 UTC
Roime wrote:
T3s are meant to do many things well, but not be the best at anything, or better than specialist T2 ships. Making one subsystem actually usable does not step on the toes of T1 or T2 logi cruisers, which have 60+ km range.


71km with Logi IV (Basi) on my alt and meta4 Large shield reps, without implants/boosts.
Have a med B-type somewhere in my hangar but haven't tested yet, whatever.

Agree for that extra range on T3 RR sub, even if you could rep at 20km with max skills it would not be OP in any form or shape, just make this sub actually useful and bring variety in T3 game play.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-01-24 21:44:52 UTC
AyayaPanda wrote:
and why o why there's no HIC subsystem for T3 Pirate



Would actually agree 100% if T3's get rid of Command sub and change it for a HIC one, make them commit to the fight without being as good as HICS could be interesting. But above all give to command ships their full and unique role because training for those is really really a huge commitment.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#40 - 2013-01-25 01:53:38 UTC
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
The point of T3 cruisers is not to do EVERYTHING better than the specialized T2 ships, but do do MANY things with a reasonable amount of competency.



Even if T3 could rep targets 70km away they would still be worse than logistics since they cant use 4 large reps without gimping the fitting.

Well i guess 70k might be a bit much but being able to rep somebody in your fleet after jumping through a gate sounds reasonable for a dedicated repair ship don't you think?
A range of 20km, maybe 30km should allow to actually use the subsystem for something other than WH sites without threatening the role of actual logistic ships.
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