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EVE's summer expansion better focus on sovereignty
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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2013-01-23 19:15:04 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
If sov supported the little guys ability to hold sov and survive in null, fewer corporations would be encouraged to grow.

Currently sov is a reason to really grow your corp and alliance.

Small guys need ownership of something tha tthey can use to allow them to interact in a way with the big guys. The PoS revamp would have provided this if players could attach a jump drive device on a PoS and put it in someone's space for staging.

The big guys need some way to drive large fights. The structure grind is discouraging this, and most people seem to agree that blowing up ships for the sake of blowing up ships isn't something that most people want to do.

I do not think CCP can really "fix" the sov grind, I have a feeling it's neccesary for balancing reasons.


I feel like they need conflict drivers that aren't tied to sov.
I think people will fight for ownership of something, just to have ownership of it. I don't think moons are really needed to drive people into wanting to claim sov, and that's a part of what they seem to be for.

Messing with moons sounds like a really easy way to for CCP to screw up some aspects of EVE's economy, and they don't want to do that.

They may just need to come up with some new form of a conflict driver. Something that's worth fighting over with large fleets, but doesn't require you to flip sov, and provides line members some kind of activity benefit.



Off the wall thought below.
Maybe something like a station "embassy" that a corporation can install in one system, that will have an effect in a number of adjacent ones.

The corporation can use it to create NPC supply routes that generate PvE content through several systems, using a single destructible object.

It could create NPC cargo ships that "attract" NPC rats. "Red" and "blue" NPC's.

One group feeds on the rats, the other group the cargo ships and "embassy" itself; as well as, obviously, the ratters.

Make it content that will support a large number of people.

Make it pay well.

Make the "bllue" NPC getting destroyed cause the "red" NPC to pay less.

Have it provide small level of passive income to the corporation, but not "significant" that it's generating to much isk, or be considered harmful if lost.

Tie activity to standing, like having an "embassy" destroyed causes the corporation to lose an amount of standing with the appropriate faction.


Basically, it needs to be things that people can benefit from at both the line member level and at the corporate level.



What, like in GW2?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2013-01-23 19:17:30 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Fact is even if sov warfare was turned into some sort of super fun happy roller coaster ride, the HBC/CFC war would not have happened and this whole thread is some sort of internalized narrative attempting to offset grunt disappointment from respective leadership onto CCP.

I may or may not be disappointed with alliance and/or coalition leadership, but that's not appropriate for a public forum.

I also have to accept with regards to diplomacy that I generally don't have access to enough information to judge them fairly. Nor do I have the experience.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-01-23 19:17:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Well it is, because, you know, conflict is supposed to be fun...

They may not be able to make it fun.

I'm serious, the fact that it's a game and there needs to be a level of balance may literally prevent it from being something that can be fun.



I'm not arguing that we should do away with everything that's irritating and cumbersome, since some of that sort of stuff is as you pointed out necessary. The point is as it is currently not nearly as much of the fun stuff that would usually come along with that (battles as a result of people defending their sov, for example) happens anymore.

I don't think that fixes at the management level to make sov swapping less tedius and cumbersome is going to have a large overall impact.

I really think the structure grinding is here forever. I think balance issues make it impossible to fix.


They should put content in the systems that will benefit both the line level member as well as be an investment at the corporate level, that would stimulate large fleet fights.

Some meaningful, largescale engagements could cause some level of drama that can result in sov swaps here and there.


La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2013-01-23 19:21:38 UTC
The idea should be to make taking and holding sov fun. If you make it hard or boring that only serves to prevent people from taking it and keep people out of nullsec. If sov is fun then players will defend their own sov because they enjoy it and want to keep it.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-01-23 19:21:44 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
If sov supported the little guys ability to hold sov and survive in null, fewer corporations would be encouraged to grow.

Currently sov is a reason to really grow your corp and alliance.

Small guys need ownership of something tha tthey can use to allow them to interact in a way with the big guys. The PoS revamp would have provided this if players could attach a jump drive device on a PoS and put it in someone's space for staging.

The big guys need some way to drive large fights. The structure grind is discouraging this, and most people seem to agree that blowing up ships for the sake of blowing up ships isn't something that most people want to do.

I do not think CCP can really "fix" the sov grind, I have a feeling it's neccesary for balancing reasons.


I feel like they need conflict drivers that aren't tied to sov.
I think people will fight for ownership of something, just to have ownership of it. I don't think moons are really needed to drive people into wanting to claim sov, and that's a part of what they seem to be for.

Messing with moons sounds like a really easy way to for CCP to screw up some aspects of EVE's economy, and they don't want to do that.

They may just need to come up with some new form of a conflict driver. Something that's worth fighting over with large fleets, but doesn't require you to flip sov, and provides line members some kind of activity benefit.



Off the wall thought below.
Maybe something like a station "embassy" that a corporation can install in one system, that will have an effect in a number of adjacent ones.

The corporation can use it to create NPC supply routes that generate PvE content through several systems, using a single destructible object.

It could create NPC cargo ships that "attract" NPC rats. "Red" and "blue" NPC's.

One group feeds on the rats, the other group the cargo ships and "embassy" itself; as well as, obviously, the ratters.

Make it content that will support a large number of people.

Make it pay well.

Make the "bllue" NPC getting destroyed cause the "red" NPC to pay less.

Have it provide small level of passive income to the corporation, but not "significant" that it's generating to much isk, or be considered harmful if lost.

Tie activity to standing, like having an "embassy" destroyed causes the corporation to lose an amount of standing with the appropriate faction.


Basically, it needs to be things that people can benefit from at both the line member level and at the corporate level.



What, like in GW2?

No and yes at the same time.

It needs to be more meaningful, but it's the same basic principle. Something that both the individual player as well as the corporation as an entitty would have a vested interest in, that can take a large fleet to destroy and defend, and doesn't involve an actual sov swap.

Sometimes the only think you need is a little injection of drama to get a ball rolling. It doesn't need to lead to massive sov changes, but it could antagonize some grops enough to do a swap here and there if sufficiently annoyed.

Or maybe it'll be enough to **** people off enough to get them doing massive sov swaps.


Who knows.

It's better then empty ******* systems with no content and no large or small scale fights.
Right?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2013-01-23 19:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Out of curiosity how would it affect sov mechanics if the moons(tech) were only located in lowsec? I don't mean how would it affect the actual corp/player (unbiased opinion) but how would it alter the way things are done? I know it wouldn't change the actual mechanics of timers or sov bashing... but wouldn't it create a shift of where the borders are determined?

It would definitely add conflict, add fights for control, and would also add changes to low as well.

Would also seem like even though the grind would suck of bashing those pos, it would give a good reason to do it therefore making it worthwile.

That would also bring on your embassy aspect and would create an almost mutual benefit while encouraging the greedy to be greedy at the cost of war.

I think it would also bring on the desire to take those empty areas to get closer and closer to those "areas of conflict/borderlands" and would encourage even the larger blocs to shore up to micromanage/tighten up those areas of influence.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#107 - 2013-01-23 19:23:51 UTC
All of the "highsec" damage control in this thread is downright hilarious. You'd be making way more isk if we were fighting, guys! Isn't that what you really want?

This thread really comes down to one major point.

The biggest war the entire game would have ever seen was called off because both sides think the current system is horrible and would not result in any fun whatsoever, win or lose. Both sides would rather make up their own battleground in order to have fun. What does that tell you about the current sov mechanics in 0.0?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2013-01-23 19:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Murk Paradox wrote:
Out of curiosity how would it affect sov mechanics if the moons were only located in lowsec? I don't mean how would it affect the actual corp/player (unbiased opinion) but how would it alter the way things are done? I know it wouldn't change the actual mechanics of timers or sov bashing... but wouldn't it create a shift of where the borders are determined?

It would definitely add conflict, add fights for control, and would also add changes to low as well.

Would also seem like even though the grind would suck of bashing those pos, it would give a good reason to do it therefore making it worthwile.

That would also bring on your embassy aspect and would create an almost mutual benefit while encouraging the greedy to be greedy at the cost of war.

I think it would also bring on the desire to take those empty areas to get closer and closer to those "areas of conflict/borderlands" and would encourage even the larger blocs to shore up to micromanage/tighten up those areas of influence.


It would be worse because now you penalize people for fighting for their property via sec status. Supercaps would die less because the only thing to hold them in lowsec is a scripted hictor and people couldn't control access to their property making it much less secure/fun. You make things harder and more boring so less fights will occur.

How to make nullsec worthwhile 101:

-Take highsec down in quality from 100% to 50%

-Add something worth fighting over, industrial installations, valuable non-game breaking resources, non-game breaking regional uniqueness, etc.

-Remove a lot of the boring painful things to do, massive structure grinds, blue ball inducing events, etc.

-Make player made > npc given.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-01-23 19:30:14 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
All of the "highsec" damage control in this thread is downright hilarious. You'd be making way more isk if we were fighting, guys! Isn't that what you really want?

This thread really comes down to one major point.

The biggest war the entire game would have ever seen was called off because both sides think the current system is horrible and would not result in any fun whatsoever, win or lose. Both sides would rather make up their own battleground in order to have fun. What does that tell you about the current sov mechanics in 0.0?

Do you want the fights, or do you want the sov swapping?

It sounds like everyone wants the fights, as an industrialist I know I do, but no one wants to endure the sov mechanics to get them.

Drama has a tendency to happen when one ship shoots another, if we got more ships shooting each other it would stand to reason that more drama would be created. The more drama we create the more likely someone is to start sov swapping to fuel that drama even more.



If Montolio had been able to get large fights, his fuel to the fire approach would have more than likely worked.

I think that says a lot.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-01-23 19:30:58 UTC
Artimis Scout wrote:
It was sure was fun doing that with POSes. We had to blow them all up in the system and then put new ones up. Also this was before this game turned into Capital Ships Online so we had to do that in battleships. And man I wish they had invention then cause T2 stuff sure was expensive cause only a few had the BPO's to make the items. That would have helped a little.

So forgive me if I don't care about your little whine fest because you guys had the need to take over all of Null. Really want to fix Null, fix capital ships. Its because of capital ships that you need all these huge grindy things.

I say make it even harder to keep sov. Put constellation installations in the area. Every 4 or so hours someone from the alliance has to sit there for 15 minutes to keep control. No other people can be with 10km of it. Miss 2 of those and the constallation can be taken over. Doesn't sound like fun, don't take over 100+ constallations. Have your alliance control only what they have man power to hold.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
Add your idea to that list.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Dave Stark
#111 - 2013-01-23 19:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
CCP Greyscale wrote:
•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

10 million people playing WoW disagree.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2013-01-23 19:34:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

10 million people playing WoW disagree.

That's wrong.

10 million people prove that they'll play a game that is tedius.

It's not the same thing.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2013-01-23 19:37:28 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

10 million people playing WoW disagree.


The only thing that says is that 10 million people are willing to do tedious repetitive tasks. That says nothing about it being cool/uncool.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Dave Stark
#114 - 2013-01-23 19:40:04 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

10 million people playing WoW disagree.


The only thing that says is that 10 million people are willing to do tedious repetitive tasks. That says nothing about it being cool/uncool.


well it can't be that uncool if people are willing to do it. right?
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#115 - 2013-01-23 19:43:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

10 million people playing WoW disagree.


The only thing that says is that 10 million people are willing to do tedious repetitive tasks. That says nothing about it being cool/uncool.


well it can't be that uncool if people are willing to do it. right?


10 million people are willing to jump off a bridge. Will you follow them?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#116 - 2013-01-23 19:44:26 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


well it can't be that uncool if people are willing to do it. right?

But WoW is designed to be tedius. You log in, do everything the game has to offer, and then log out. Then log in with an alt and do it again.

A lot can be said about making things consistent.

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-01-23 19:45:18 UTC
EI Digin wrote:


10 million people are willing to jump off a bridge. Will you follow them?

And then there's this.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-01-23 19:46:30 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

10 million people playing WoW disagree.


The only thing that says is that 10 million people are willing to do tedious repetitive tasks. That says nothing about it being cool/uncool.


well it can't be that uncool if people are willing to do it. right?


10 million people are willing to jump off a bridge. Will you follow them?
But...but, they say it is the best game ever. I'll try it once, what could happen?

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Dave Stark
#119 - 2013-01-23 19:46:55 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

10 million people playing WoW disagree.


The only thing that says is that 10 million people are willing to do tedious repetitive tasks. That says nothing about it being cool/uncool.


well it can't be that uncool if people are willing to do it. right?


10 million people are willing to jump off a bridge. Will you follow them?


no, that's why i unsubbed my wow account and you have the unfortunate pleasure of talking to me here.
Dave Stark
#120 - 2013-01-23 19:48:17 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
But...but, they say it is the best game ever. I'll try it once, what could happen?


well little timmy, you might enjoy being given the best gear for simply logging in and doing the same thing every day, would you like that?

don't forget, every one can be the best, even if there are 10 million of you, and you want to stand in the fire. only one person of the 25 has to be alive at the end and it doesn't have to be you!