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CSM minutes: industry in 0.0
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Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#61 - 2013-01-26 14:09:48 UTC
Infinite supply of minerals means imminent price crash on minerals.

the value of ISK has gone up over the years, hence other goods like PLEX have went down in price, lowering the price on minerals would further push the market down, the trend is viable and can be used to great use by CCP in creating stability and a rugged market, but I worry that new industrialists would have a hard time surviving.

In fact, that's exactly what would happen, prices are break even right now, a shift into the negative would mean certain death of highsec industry, on anything more then random production for one self.

I strongly believe the current mineral compression system is more then ample supply for supercap and cap builders, a problem does not exist.

As for bringing miners to lowsec, perhaps allure of new mineral types would pretty much do it, the work on that project would probably less time consuming for CCP employee's then trying to rebalanced minerals and manufacture in low/null, also New minerals are an advertisement all in themselves.

that's just my creative five cents.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#62 - 2013-01-26 20:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Kara Books wrote:
Infinite supply of minerals means imminent price crash on minerals.


Not true. Hidden belts represent an infinite supply of minerals, and HS's supply of minerals is larger than the HS mining fleet can harvest at the moment.


Unless you mean something like free, unlimited, NPC sell orders, in which case, duh.


Kara Books wrote:
In fact, that's exactly what would happen, prices are break even right now, a shift into the negative would mean certain death of highsec industry, on anything more then random production for one self.


Ummm, what? Are you suggesting that the market for manufactured goods won't react to materials and manufacturing cost increases?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#63 - 2013-01-28 00:40:46 UTC
One thing I do see that I personally don't agree with is the mentality that 0.0 should never have to go to high sec. While things may be in need of some tweaking, I like the fact that there are reasons to have supply chains running back and forth between Null and High sec.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#64 - 2013-01-28 01:51:56 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
One thing I do see that I personally don't agree with is the mentality that 0.0 should never have to go to high sec. While things may be in need of some tweaking, I like the fact that there are reasons to have supply chains running back and forth between Null and High sec.

~Z


http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=946

CCP wants nullsec to be ~90% self sufficient by volume.

At the moment, Nullsec is, in practice, maybe 1% self sufficient by volume. The combination of easy access to low ends, so-cheap-as-to-be-free industry slots, and so-safe-as-to-be-risk-free logistics through HS means that manufacturing in HS and Jumping finished goods down (or the minerals, in the case of Supers and large quantities of T1 BS hulls) is strictly better than manufacturing locally.

So all raw materials get exported to HS, and all finished goods get imported from HS.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mitotsudaira
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2013-01-29 00:55:07 UTC
It will be easier if they just Buff up Spodumain, It is a heavy ore and useless in nullsec right now. But if they increased the amount of tritanium when refining this can solve the problem of bringing trit from high sec to low sec.
Dave stark
#66 - 2013-01-29 01:24:10 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
One thing I do see that I personally don't agree with is the mentality that 0.0 should never have to go to high sec. While things may be in need of some tweaking, I like the fact that there are reasons to have supply chains running back and forth between Null and High sec.

~Z


but they will have to go to high sec, by nature 0.0 must always overproduce zyd/mega/morph in order to supply empire space.
Mister Tuggles
Heretic Army
Sedition.
#67 - 2013-01-29 19:45:21 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
One thing I do see that I personally don't agree with is the mentality that 0.0 should never have to go to high sec. While things may be in need of some tweaking, I like the fact that there are reasons to have supply chains running back and forth between Null and High sec.

~Z


http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=946

CCP wants nullsec to be ~90% self sufficient by volume.

At the moment, Nullsec is, in practice, maybe 1% self sufficient by volume. The combination of easy access to low ends, so-cheap-as-to-be-free industry slots, and so-safe-as-to-be-risk-free logistics through HS means that manufacturing in HS and Jumping finished goods down (or the minerals, in the case of Supers and large quantities of T1 BS hulls) is strictly better than manufacturing locally.

So all raw materials get exported to HS, and all finished goods get imported from HS.



What kind of crack are you smoking? HS is in no way, shape, or form "so-safe-as-to-be-risk-free". Do you know how many suicide gankers sit on gates just waiting for someone to roll through with cargo worth a fraction more than their gank ship? Have you even been through any of the trade hubs as to see the numerous wrecks of industrial, and other ships carrying cargo? You can say it is the person shipping the items fault, but industrial ships can't tank for **** unless you are in a freighter or an Orca, and even then you have people suiciding those on occasion.

You being a nullbear makes every single argument you have for null completely moot in my mind. You have no concept as to the goings on outside of your security bubble, aka sov with cyno jammers, jump bridges, upgraded farming systems, etc. Those alliances within a 50 jump radius of the sov you live in are all blued up. Really scary.

There is pretty much no risk in Null unless you **** the wrong people off or actively go looking for a fight in systems far outside your security blanket, but CCP deems it necessary to push more, and more of the wealth there.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#68 - 2013-01-30 04:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mister Tuggles wrote:
What kind of crack are you smoking? HS is in no way, shape, or form "so-safe-as-to-be-risk-free". Do you know how many suicide gankers sit on gates just waiting for someone to roll through with cargo worth a fraction more than their gank ship? Have you even been through any of the trade hubs as to see the numerous wrecks of industrial, and other ships carrying cargo? You can say it is the person shipping the items fault, but industrial ships can't tank for **** unless you are in a freighter or an Orca, and even then you have people suiciding those on occasion.

You being a nullbear makes every single argument you have for null completely moot in my mind. You have no concept as to the goings on outside of your security bubble, aka sov with cyno jammers, jump bridges, upgraded farming systems, etc. Those alliances within a 50 jump radius of the sov you live in are all blued up. Really scary.

There is pretty much no risk in Null unless you **** the wrong people off or actively go looking for a fight in systems far outside your security blanket, but CCP deems it necessary to push more, and more of the wealth there.



In running my operation in HS, I have lost 0 ships, 0 Freighters, 0 ISK (gotta love the way the market will eat anything you build), and none of my Courier contracts (even the expensive ones) have ever been ganked.
How many Suicide Gank killmails do you see with reasonable values of cargo in them?
When was the last time you got locked out of the station that has all your Ships/BPOs in it in HS?
When was the last time your POS got reinforced without warning in HS?
When was the last time you had to pay for fuel to move large cargos in HS?
When was the last time you had a month long build cancelled by (someone else's)accident/sov takeover/etc in HS?
When was the last time you had to put up a manufacturing POS because there aren't any accessible station slots in HS?

Suicide Gank losses are entirely the fault of the people who make them profitable. Guess who they are?

My main is currently in LS (though I've spent significant time living in both Sov and NPC null), my Industry alts are in HS (because there's no reason to ever build [for profit] anything that can be built in HS anywhere but HS).

You just demonstrated that you have no concept of what actually goes on in Nullsec. You don't seem to recognize that being in Blue Sov doesn't give you any actual advantages (like say, a massive, inescapable NPC response force) if someone is trying to kill you. You don't seem to get that Intel channels are not actually something that comes for free when you hold Sov, or that upgraded systems don't just come out of thin air when you move in.

For a quick reference for exactly how safe HS is, count the number of Freighters that come through Niarja in a day and compare it to the number of Freighters ganked there. Betcha it's gonna be better than 100:1.

Do you really think the Freight companies are charging 400k ISK a Jump for something that's actually Risky in a 2.6b (Collat+Hull) ship?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon