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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

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B'reanna
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#941 - 2013-01-26 13:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: B'reanna
from something fozzie said earlier i think there trying to to get active armor reaping were its ok on some ships completely useless on some bult for passive tanking and rather good on bonused ships.

if his last post about grid reductions applys to all armor repers not just the aar then wit the news skill and mass reductions this should be viable. after messing with a few fits a lot of he amarr ships still lend themselves to passive tanking were the bonuses gal ships can have some impressive tanks and still do decent dmg or go full ****** and have stupidly good tanks and little dps. the asb is still a much better 1 mod tank than the aar . when looking at a cyclone and brutix cyclone with 1 asb and brutic with 1 aar the cyclone tanks harder untill it runs outa boosters but the aar lasts alot longer were the balance seems to break down is the fact that the cyclone can fit a second asb and the brutix has to fit a nomal rep.

But how to fix this? being able to fit more aars would frrancly be even more op than the multiple asbs so we dont wanna go that rout. (unless we do?) personally im in favor of giving the asb back its original stats before it was nerfed(or at lest the storage) then limiting it to one per ship. thus the asb still provides a better "burst" tank but the aar has a clear advantage in staying power, which it dosnt necessarily have vs dual asb fits.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#942 - 2013-01-26 13:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
@ CCP Fozzie how about increasing the base rep amount on all armour reps including the the AAR?

Also just setting up a brutix on eve hq using the old stats i can't see how you expect us to fit anything above electrons as you have to put on a cap booster 2 armour reps even with %20 less pg you still then have to factor in armour rigs with pg pen and thats before you look at putting a link on it considering you're nerfing its pg..... where as ASB's are easy 1 slot mod that doesn't really have much of a drawback please make it a bit easier on the fittings at least less cap usage would be nice too.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#943 - 2013-01-26 14:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Roime wrote:
tl,dr; no need to buff armor reppers any more.

Ok, personal reality check after a shitload of quality time with pyfa, especially on cruiser level. I'll be backpedaling most of my criticism. Looking at AAR fits in more detail, I find them very viable indeed.

- speed issue of active armor is fixed with this buff, which is big
- downgrading to Ions does not mean that a blaster ship is doing insignificant dps, quite contrary
- MAAR+MAR reps can be better adjusted according to incoming damage than single ASBs
- MAAR+MAR reps are easier to fit than either dual LASB or single XLASB on cruisers
- MAAR+MAR peak burst is significantly longer than dual LASB or single XLASB
- MAAR+MAR reps a lot more than dual LASB, and a bit more than single XLASB during burst, and doesn't drop to 0 after that.
- capacitor always lasts longer than ASB charges

This was for example Moa vs Vexor realistic fits, Moa has that magical 5% resist bonus, Vexor has no bonuses to reps.

So I'm starting to see the light with AAR and not buffing the repper stats at all- check out MAAR+MAR fits on cruisers if you still think that med repper amount needs buffing Oops

[Vexor, MAAR+MAR=LOVE]

Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer I
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Hammerhead II x2
Warrior II x1

Needs PG implant. Clearly my future favourite cruiser. Obviously vulnerable to neuts and the tank requires a lot of attention to economy, but 888,9 p/s burst tank, 473 base dps (HHs+CNAM) and 2466m/s with full tackle has to have a weakness.

Or a single MAAR Thorax. Neutrons, full tackle, more EHP than 1600mm II plate fit. 2891 m/s top speed. Yeah, more than the revered XLASB, which can't even fit Neutrons and requires lolamounts of fitting acrobacy.

If these kinds of fits would be unneutable, forums would be nothing but NERF GALLENTE!!!111 in no time. Which we might see anyway tbh.

Also, check out MAARMARMaller with RAH against two damage types Big smile

I also find the buffer tank buff very well balanced, it doesn't turn heavily plated ships into interceptors, but creates a new style of "light armor buffer" which is very interesting. 800mm fits are comparable to LSE tank in EHP and mobility, slightly less damage but with no mid slots lost. Sweet balance.

MAAR+MAR Exiled Myrm with armor link in a small gang gets a mad amount of EHP from just the burst period. Brutix can probably live up to it's design, rushing to target while repping the damage it receives during the sprint. I'm looking forward to ending this theorycrafting and getting my hands on the ships :)


Good post.

1) I don't know about you but I'm a bit weary of always needing a fitting implant for many of the Gal fits. Makes them much less attractive for use in null with the frequent loss of clones. Thus I find that flying Minnie usually seems an easier choice as I can fit very optimal fits with no implants. I think this needs to be looked at across the board for Gal boats.

2) So by your math am I right to understand this one active rep Vexor could still not hold up to 2 other Vexors or stabbers or what ever? I think I'll stick with buffer then no? I mean normally you are dealing with many more ships than 1-2 enemy and this tank won't hold. Particularly with the easy availability of cheap logi now. Also, can't see why I would choose this fit over an ASB boat or an armor buffer precisely because of neuting. You can put the largest cap-less guns, and be tank unnuetable in shield boats and brawl with less fear of cap loss. I really can't remember too many fights I've had where there wasn't someone nueting. So I still don't see this module as that great. Perhaps if the reps were capless it might see more use. Also look at how many slots both mid and low have to be devoted to tank (including the cap booster) vice an ASB boat. Using your Vexor as an example it still leaves an explosive hole, allows no space for even a single damage mod and eats up a mid. Again the buffer Vexor I think really outshines this as you can still get great tank and have a low and a mid still free for other uses and explosive hole filled with one rig slot devoted to that resist if you like.

3) Most of the shield ASB fits can use the largest guns and it needs to be the same with the Gal boats particularly for the already anemic range and inability to project damage with guns. They also need to make the PvP Armor repper, this AAR, capable of being the only low slot repper required. The need to have 2-3 active repping mods is ridiculous and also becomes more of a heat issue (3 overheating mods burn out quicker than 1). It absolutely needs to be 100% fuel fed vice cap. Otherwise, its still going to see only very niche use.
Shepard Book
Underground Stargate
#944 - 2013-01-26 14:25:55 UTC
The armor changes are looking good. The rig changes to velocity and the new skill to are going to mix things up for sure
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#945 - 2013-01-26 15:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikuno
So, we're getting close to a module, with the AAR, that will be second rate to the ASB but it will have it's own distinctive features and some use (though I still believe it makes standard reps the choice only for the 2nd or 3rd rep, never the first). One of those, which is good from a cargo and lore point of view, is the use of nanite paste. This has the knock on effect of making a cycle of over-rep on the AAR more expensive than the ASB.

The AAR was limited to 8 cycles when this change was decided, yet wouldn't it make more sense to have it run for 9 cycles? The balancing between 7 and 9 cycles is based on cost within the ASB - more expensive boosters have smaller volumes but no other gaming difference. So since the nanite paste is even more expensive I'd think a 9 cycle default would be perfectly sensible from a lore and performance perspective.

Please.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#946 - 2013-01-26 15:40:26 UTC
I really hope this entire burst active tanking modules shenanigans will be dropped completely. Active tanking is all about how much ehp will it get you in the timeframe of the fight. And whats the point of the whole approach, gives more at the start and then slowly falls behind, just fit a plate then. These modules will be impossible to balance, and even if you do balance them you will get something you already have in the game, buffer+rep fits. And they are not that great except maybe a couple, for example punisher fits made to solo cruisers/bc.

The opinion that active shield tanking is better because it repairs faster is wrong. Its better because it repairs more. LSBII+SBAII will repair 20% more than 2xMARII. Getting those repairs a couple of seconds faster will rarely save you in some situation but the real big difference is simply more ehp in a fight.
It will take LSBII+SBAII a minute to catch up in repair with LASB, in a ship that has unlimited cap so you can run them constantly, so in practice it is much more, the fight will be already over before that happens. And since you can fit two of them they are better in pve as well. They are not better because they are "burstier", they are better because they give you more ehp. The same deal is with proposed MAAR, MARII will never catch up with it even if you have unlimited cap and can run them for the whole reload time of MAAR.

Why not just buff repair of regular reps to bring them in line with shield booster and nerf ancillary shield booster fitting (to bring it in line with shield booster+capacitor booster fitting requiraments) and limit to one per ship, that would fix active tanking completely, will not break anything or give you huge balancing problems in the future.


Also this does not adress the problems of buffer thanking at all, and that is where the real problems are. Speed has much bigger impact in damage calculation that signature, not to mention other benefits it bring.
The problem is that mandatory propulsion mods, rig penalties for armor/shield tanking, mass of plates and mwd sig bloom basically negate the penalty of shield tanking and amplify the negative effects of armor tanking. This needs fixing.
Sigras
Conglomo
#947 - 2013-01-26 16:55:17 UTC
NetheranE wrote:
Edward Pierce wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Active armour tanking also requires you to get injectors, fortify your cap, increase your grid etc. .. but it is true that the basic skills to use the repairers and get rudimentary resist mods require less time to train than shield ditto you just won't be able to tank so much as a gnat without all the secondary support skills.

Which applies for active shield tanking as well.

You can arguably do without the cap boosters by using an ASB, but keep in mind that shield tanking requires more active hardeners than sub-BS armor tanking, and is therefore more dependent on good cap skills just to keep your resists up.

More training is never a popular thing to implement, but let's not come up with fake reasons why it "shouldn't" be done.


What you completely missed is that armor tankers are REQUIRED to train their compensation skills, so thats 4 rank3 skills that MUST be trained to be effective.

Shied tankers can literally forget those until they are +50mil SP and lose practically no effectiveness in their ships.

Shield: 9
Armor: 10
Multipliers? Strongly in favour of shield.
GG.

you guys all ignore the shield compensation skills?

my neut domi, curse, bhaalgorn, and new prophecy would all like a word with you . . .
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#948 - 2013-01-26 17:04:26 UTC
ASB fittings are stupid, but that's no excuse to want stupid fittings for armor tankers... Keep the issues seperated plz
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#949 - 2013-01-26 18:28:07 UTC
Roime wrote:
tl,dr; no need to buff armor reppers any more.

Ok, personal reality check after a shitload of quality time with pyfa, especially on cruiser level. I'll be backpedaling most of my criticism. Looking at AAR fits in more detail, I find them very viable indeed.

- speed issue of active armor is fixed with this buff, which is big
- downgrading to Ions does not mean that a blaster ship is doing insignificant dps, quite contrary
- MAAR+MAR reps can be better adjusted according to incoming damage than single ASBs
- MAAR+MAR reps are easier to fit than either dual LASB or single XLASB on cruisers
- MAAR+MAR peak burst is significantly longer than dual LASB or single XLASB
- MAAR+MAR reps a lot more than dual LASB, and a bit more than single XLASB during burst, and doesn't drop to 0 after that.
- capacitor always lasts longer than ASB charges

This was for example Moa vs Vexor realistic fits, Moa has that magical 5% resist bonus, Vexor has no bonuses to reps.

So I'm starting to see the light with AAR and not buffing the repper stats at all- check out MAAR+MAR fits on cruisers if you still think that med repper amount needs buffing Oops

[Vexor, MAAR+MAR=LOVE]

Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer I
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Hammerhead II x2
Warrior II x1

Needs PG implant. Clearly my future favourite cruiser. Obviously vulnerable to neuts and the tank requires a lot of attention to economy, but 888,9 p/s burst tank, 473 base dps (HHs+CNAM) and 2466m/s with full tackle has to have a weakness.

Or a single MAAR Thorax. Neutrons, full tackle, more EHP than 1600mm II plate fit. 2891 m/s top speed. Yeah, more than the revered XLASB, which can't even fit Neutrons and requires lolamounts of fitting acrobacy.

If these kinds of fits would be unneutable, forums would be nothing but NERF GALLENTE!!!111 in no time. Which we might see anyway tbh.

Also, check out MAARMARMaller with RAH against two damage types Big smile

I also find the buffer tank buff very well balanced, it doesn't turn heavily plated ships into interceptors, but creates a new style of "light armor buffer" which is very interesting. 800mm fits are comparable to LSE tank in EHP and mobility, slightly less damage but with no mid slots lost. Sweet balance.

MAAR+MAR Exiled Myrm with armor link in a small gang gets a mad amount of EHP from just the burst period. Brutix can probably live up to it's design, rushing to target while repping the damage it receives during the sprint. I'm looking forward to ending this theorycrafting and getting my hands on the ships :)

Curious I don't get those kind of defence numbers more like 458dps tank and something like 50seconds of cap with microwarpdrive off. How did you work it out?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#950 - 2013-01-26 20:53:58 UTC
Overheat everything, it's a cruiser fight!

.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#951 - 2013-01-26 21:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Roime wrote:

[Vexor, MAAR+MAR=LOVE]

Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer I
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Hammerhead II x2
Warrior II x1

Needs PG implant. Clearly my future favourite cruiser. Obviously vulnerable to neuts and the tank requires a lot of attention to economy, but 888,9 p/s burst tank, 473 base dps (HHs+CNAM) and 2466m/s with full tackle has to have a weakness.


I don't know how you're getting a burst tank of 888, I'm only getting 459 overheated. I'm guessing your number is with ganglinks?
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#952 - 2013-01-26 21:11:57 UTC
Roime wrote:
Overheat everything, it's a cruiser fight!



459 overheated, this is with treating the MAAR as 2.25 times medium armor repairer I. MAR II as normal.
Alexander Sinclair
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#953 - 2013-01-26 22:35:13 UTC
Aren't all the upgrade skills Rank 2 except for Advanced Weapons Upgrade which is Rank 6, wouldn't this make Armor Upgrade a odd skill to have at Rank 3?
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#954 - 2013-01-26 22:57:32 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Come to think of it, why not just remove small shield boosters from the game, rename mediums to smalls, larges to medium, and XL to large?
Then people couldn't complain about how armor cannot oversize, while shield can double-so. Roll
I think they should, then maybe you'd start looking at the bigger picture.

Shields have more options for burst-tanking because, I don't know, try and compare HP numbers on plates and extenders? Roll
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#955 - 2013-01-26 23:37:35 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

I don't know how you're getting a burst tank of 888, I'm only getting 459 overheated. I'm guessing your number is with ganglinks?


No links or drugs there but something seems to be borked in my pyfa, the numbers are off. Was too good to be true What?

.
Wu Phat
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#956 - 2013-01-26 23:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Wu Phat
Would the AAR be much better if it did not use charges in the way ASB mechanic works.
I fell the AAR should work like siege modes using cap and fuel (nanite repair paste). when ether resources are low the AAR shuts off. I would increase the nanite paste use amount for the AAR if a change did happen .
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#957 - 2013-01-26 23:45:35 UTC
Roime wrote:
[quote=Takeshi Yamato]...No links or drugs there but something seems to be borked in my pyfa, the numbers are off. Was too good to be true What?

You said it yourself, its a cruiser fight!

Those 4-500 tanked is still 100% of the enemy dps absorbed into heat damage and cap drain while he is hopefully unable to say the same.

Fights where the winner isn't on fire with everything red-lined when the loser pops are ganks! Big smile
Viribus
Lords of the Lockerroom
WE FORM YUG0SLAVIA
#958 - 2013-01-27 00:34:50 UTC
The brutix is still going to be awful after these changes

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#959 - 2013-01-27 00:53:52 UTC
Looks like pyfa gets confused from lots tabs and removing and adding links, it shows boosted numbers for new fits until restarted.

So it looks like ASBs are still vastly better. Lol.

.
Mund Richard
#960 - 2013-01-27 04:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Roime wrote:
So it looks like ASBs are still vastly better. Lol.

Oh noes! Who would have guessed! Roll

Joke aside, the AAR does have one fun advantage due to how armor repping works:

ASB-s never beat their T2 variant, and don't even come close to it once a reload is done, due to how short their timer is compared to the reload (21/36/45 against 60, they don't rep THAT much).

With Armor reppers, the cycle time gets vastly longer (36/72/90 sec vs the 60sec reload), thus at LAAR level, 2,25X*90+0*60 is more than 1,333*X*(90+60).
By a miniscule amount, but it is more (202,5 vs 200, so 1,25% better)
MAR is worse, but it comes pretty close to a T2 before multiple reloads are done, while needing no cap.

Although I don't remember when was the last time I heard of a single-repper BC/BS for PvP, and for multiple reppers you need a cap booster anyways, so this new module...

It helps with cap for active tanking, at BS level you need to worry about one less, at Cruiser/BC level you trade severe cap issues for a lesser repping (assuming you live long enough for the T2 version catching up and overtaking MAR to be an issue).


Can I forsee it upsetting the field as L/XLASB has?
No, it still doesn't make any sense for a normally shield-tanked (even if non-bonused) ship to use (the hardcapped) ONE of this module (unlike the ASB Brutix, Myrms that ARE armor-bonused... or any non-bonused ship as well...).

It's a band-aid that makes people experiment with armor fits, specially with the active rig change penalty.
And it does make double/tripple active repping viable with one cap booster (though not cap-stable, vulnerable to neuts and cap issues).
And now you can have mobility, forgetting the double speed penalty of rig and plate, will have to see how well that works.
10800 armor hp over 72 second compared to the 6000 of a T2 plate is nothing to sneeze at (or 9125 trimarked and almost half again your base armor? Makes you ponder what you give up with those 3 rigs. Quite a lot...for instance another 5.5k for an Abaddon. Of course, if you have 3 active rep rigs, it's balancing out.).
Of course, that assumes you live long enough for the difference to manifest itself Lol

Compared to the introduction of ASBs underwhelming, compared to nothing happening? Preferable.

Maybe the new way to tank armor will be one of these, and a pair of Burst/Collison accelerator?
Astronautics reduce armor (though with true active tanking that may be interesting as a trade-off), CPU and PG rigs are also a way to go, and I'm out of silly ideas now. Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.