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Minmatar are going to become the crap, CCP wants retribution not balance
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Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#81 - 2013-01-21 17:47:17 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
I can get those numbers on a rupture quite easily fyi... (il give liang the 7m/s lol *cough* straw clutching *cough*)


Yup, it's called adding damage profiles.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#82 - 2013-01-21 17:52:41 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:


Liang Nuren wrote:
Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.

Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters]
Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.

Thorax TTL: 72 seconds
Rupture TTL: 95 seconds

Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).

-Liang

Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!"


Where are you getting these numbers from? What rupture set up is giving you 275 dps at 24kms? How 30k ehp? I don't see how you got that number, did you just make it up again?

Did you remove the nanofiber for another tracking enhancer? At this rate even an ARMOR OMEN will beat that slow piece of crap you call a kiting ship.


337 dps at 24km
1628 speed (your rupture only has 1693 but you rounded it up to 1.7k)
30k ehp (you seem to think massive tank is very important for kiting, well here you go)
cap stability




I can get those numbers on a rupture quite easily fyi... (il give liang the 7m/s lol *cough* straw clutching *cough*)

Tank is important because it means you dont die as quickly... (the 30k is against Anti matter....)


Yep, I ran the damage profile against antimatter and it wasn't 30k.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#83 - 2013-01-21 17:55:35 UTC
So what I got out of this is that you now want to compare the Rupture to the Omen because you don't think the Thorax is a better kiting ship. It's almost like the ships have different strengths and weaknesses and you have to choose which one you want to use...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#84 - 2013-01-21 18:01:13 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
So what I got out of this is that you now want to compare the Rupture to the Omen because you don't think the Thorax is a better kiting ship. It's almost like the ships have different strengths and weaknesses and you have to choose which one you want to use...

-Liang


Nope, I wanted to show you and the omen haters that if the omen is "bad" then the rupture must really suck if it is outperformed by an armor tanking kiting omen.

Also your numbers don't match up.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#85 - 2013-01-21 18:03:48 UTC
The numbers match up fine, and have been confirmed repeatedly by other posters. Maybe your EFT is broken.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#86 - 2013-01-21 18:05:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km

The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...

That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm.


See, but now you're talking about the Thorax as it was meant to be flown: get up in someone's face and try to brawl them down. That's not kiting. It'd lose horribly to a brawler fit Rupture and win gloriously vs a kiting rupture. /shrug

-Liang


You can tell how a rupture is fit within the first 2 cycles of its MWD. If its bricked you know you will out-kite it. If it's TE'd with some speed you know you can brawl it down. You have both options in a kiting thorax against a rupture.

P.s.

Don't you think this entire conversation proves the balance is off? It's something like Stabber <<<< Thorax/Rupture << Vexor -

Im flying an oversized vexor atm and im loving it. I wont go near the rupture since the vexor is so much better. And i wont go near the stabber since the thorax is so much better. For larger gangs ill hit up the omen
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#87 - 2013-01-21 18:08:34 UTC
Aralieus wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

So keep your short-sighted and non-constructive posts to yourself please.



Everything else you said didn't really matter but i will address this concern of yours. I base what I said off of what I know and apparently CCP has known for quite sometime.


This has been a stark reminder as to why i don't reply to people with a tiny bit of experience and a huge chip on their shoulder based on that experience. Good luck in life.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#88 - 2013-01-21 18:08:56 UTC
Do our T1 cruiser options look like this:
A) Rupture
B) Rupture
C) Rupture
D) Rupture
E) Rupture
F) Rupture

No? You're telling me it sounds like:
A) Caracal
B) Omen
C) Thorax
D) Rupture
E) Moa
F) Vexor
G) Arbitrator
... etc ...

Why yes I'd say that's a pretty damn big improvement.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#89 - 2013-01-21 18:11:44 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:


Liang Nuren wrote:
Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.

Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters]
Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.

Thorax TTL: 72 seconds
Rupture TTL: 95 seconds

Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).

-Liang

Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!"


Where are you getting these numbers from? What rupture set up is giving you 275 dps at 24kms? How 30k ehp? I don't see how you got that number, did you just make it up again?

Did you remove the nanofiber for another tracking enhancer? At this rate even an ARMOR OMEN will beat that slow piece of crap you call a kiting ship.


337 dps at 24km
1628 speed (your rupture only has 1693 but you rounded it up to 1.7k)
30k ehp (you seem to think massive tank is very important for kiting, well here you go)
cap stability




I can get those numbers on a rupture quite easily fyi... (il give liang the 7m/s lol *cough* straw clutching *cough*)

Tank is important because it means you dont die as quickly... (the 30k is against Anti matter....)

You omen fit also needs a pg implant, has only 25k vs barrage and other such crazy important things in 1v1 stuff

edit: also there's an extra hi slot on the rupture... i like them :D im going to say SB cos of drones and in my head this would only ever happen in wonderland


Let's not pretend that ever be anything other than a neut on 90% of setups :)
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-01-21 18:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Maeltstome wrote:


Let's not pretend that ever be anything other than a neut on 90% of setups :)


With a neut liangs DPS numbers don't remotely come close to whats posted.

Maybe thats why he never posts a fit to show his magical numbers.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Do our T1 cruiser options look like this:
A) Rupture
B) Rupture
C) Rupture
D) Rupture
E) Rupture
F) Rupture

No? You're telling me it sounds like:
A) Caracal
B) Omen
C) Thorax
D) Rupture
E) Moa
F) Vexor
G) Arbitrator
... etc ...

Why yes I'd say that's a pretty damn big improvement.

-Liang


Hahaha, this entire time you've been thinking that we are arguing that we are sad that minmatar isn't the best at everything anymore.

You are wrong. What we are saying is that we understand that min has been OP for a while. But that doesn't justify CCP to come and make them absolutely useless. From a game design standpoint.. it is bad, from being a minmatar pilot it is also bad.

The rupture does nothing better than its counterparts, it is mediocre at everything while every other race has a reason why it shines above the others.

ChromeStriker wrote:


You omen fit also needs a pg implant, has only 25k vs barrage and other such crazy important things in 1v1 stuff


PG implant that costs less than a mil, is that too expensive?
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#91 - 2013-01-21 18:18:08 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Speed
Damage
Range

Pick two . . .

see cause as minmatar youre used to having all three, but im sorry, now youre like all the rest of us mortals and have to pick two


Minmatar have never been on top for damage on any hull against hull comparison. AC's paper DPS is based on the *lowest optimal* in the game, so you never reach it. Choice of damage type has been the minmatar strength since they split their ammo into 3 damage/range tiers. Prior to that you used barrage, hail or EMP.

I've said it too many times: Stop getting your 50 man gang to chase 3 vagabonds for 200KM's off a gate then wonder why you die.

The hurricane is the exception since with 2x medium neut it can cap war-fare you while getting close to paper dps in brawl range with it's choice of damage type. Sadly this only applies to battlecruiser size hulls due to how terribad heavy neuts are against small/med nos. This leaves the tempest a narrow 'kite' gang neesh. Lets not talk about the phoon because i can't decide if i love or hate it. Maeltstrom i don't fly enough to comment in PVP situations. Oher than it having a ******** dual ASB tank.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#92 - 2013-01-21 18:20:03 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:

Hahaha, this entire time you've been thinking that we are arguing that we are sad that minmatar isn't the best at everything anymore.

You are wrong. What we are saying is that we understand that min has been OP for a while. But that doesn't justify CCP to come and make them absolutely useless.

The rupture does nothing better than its counterparts, it is mediocre at everything while every other race has a reason why it shines above the others.


That is exactly what you've been complaining about, and everyone in the thread knows it. There's nothing wrong with the Rupture except for the fact it's no longer the only viable T1 cruiser.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#93 - 2013-01-21 18:22:00 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Speed
Damage
Range

Pick two . . .

see cause as minmatar youre used to having all three, but im sorry, now youre like all the rest of us mortals and have to pick two


Minmatar have never been on top for damage on any hull against hull comparison. AC's paper DPS is based on the *lowest optimal* in the game, so you never reach it. Choice of damage type has been the minmatar strength since they split their ammo into 3 damage/range tiers. Prior to that you used barrage, hail or EMP.

I've said it too many times: Stop getting your 50 man gang to chase 3 vagabonds for 200KM's off a gate then wonder why you die.

The hurricane is the exception since with 2x medium neut it can cap war-fare you while getting close to paper dps in brawl range with it's choice of damage type. Sadly this only applies to battlecruiser size hulls due to how terribad heavy neuts are against small/med nos. This leaves the tempest a narrow 'kite' gang neesh. Lets not talk about the phoon because i can't decide if i love or hate it. Maeltstrom i don't fly enough to comment in PVP situations. Oher than it having a ******** dual ASB tank.


Actually high falloff + damage type selection has allowed for higher real DPS than other races have been capable of fielding. Yeah you aren't getting full EFT DPS out of it but you're not exactly hindered by it since the TE buff.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#94 - 2013-01-21 18:23:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:

Hahaha, this entire time you've been thinking that we are arguing that we are sad that minmatar isn't the best at everything anymore.

You are wrong. What we are saying is that we understand that min has been OP for a while. But that doesn't justify CCP to come and make them absolutely useless.

The rupture does nothing better than its counterparts, it is mediocre at everything while every other race has a reason why it shines above the others.


That is exactly what you've been complaining about, and everyone in the thread knows it. There's nothing wrong with the Rupture except for the fact it's no longer the only viable T1 cruiser.

-Liang


Re-read the OP.

Rupture has nothing going for it. Its just plain weaker.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#95 - 2013-01-21 18:24:06 UTC
I think that statement is pretty much categorically proven to be false.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#96 - 2013-01-21 18:24:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Do our T1 cruiser options look like this:
A) Rupture
B) Rupture
C) Rupture
D) Rupture
E) Rupture
F) Rupture

No? You're telling me it sounds like:
A) Caracal
B) Omen
C) Thorax
D) Rupture
E) Moa
F) Vexor
G) Arbitrator
... etc ...

Why yes I'd say that's a pretty damn big improvement.

-Liang


It's safe to see that you have schooled this guy in a straight, logical argument. Don't fall back on your old habbit of hyperbole and discredit yourself.

-Rupture was awesome.
-Thorax started getting some serious usage as a 1600 plate boat.
-Arbitrator has always been amazing, if under-used (why did it take THIS long for people to start spamming TE's? They are insane).
-Vexor was by far the best tier 2 cruisers outside of the arby
-Stabber was nerfed by the TE changes (you know what mean)
-Osprey was underestimated and honestly performed on par with the stabber due to larger drone bay and stronger tank. Yuki-Li showed us all!

As a final note i'd rate almost everything above the rupture on your second list, except maybe the caracal. I don't get why people are so hard for it now, it's alright... but it's just a lazy man's kiting ship.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#97 - 2013-01-21 18:25:46 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I think that statement is pretty much categorically proven to be false.

-Liang


Maybe with your magical numbers with no fits to back them up.

Otherwise, no.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#98 - 2013-01-21 18:27:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Actually high falloff + damage type selection has allowed for higher real DPS than other races have been capable of fielding. Yeah you aren't getting full EFT DPS out of it but you're not exactly hindered by it since the TE buff.

-Liang


That real DPS was based on a range and speed advantage which is slowly evaporating.
Carlos Jaegar
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#99 - 2013-01-21 18:29:51 UTC
I actually really like the new Cyclone, looking forward to the patch.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#100 - 2013-01-21 18:32:09 UTC
The Rupture *was* awesome, and now it's merely good. Not WTFOP, but simply good. It's good for kiting, good for brawling - it'll never really be in a situation that it's actively bad, just as it won't be in one that's actively awesome. There's value in that too, you know.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.