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Minmatar are going to become the crap, CCP wants retribution not balance
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#61 - 2013-01-21 04:23:56 UTC
The way we got the Minmatar boost the first time around was to present the facts, not make **** up and hope it stuck. The way you're going at it now is just counter productive. For instance:
- The Hurricane has been slightly nerfed, not destroyed. It doesn't suck now, and it won't suck after the patch. Comparing the Harbinger to it favorably - either before or after the patch - shows that you're just out of your ******* mind and have no clue about the game.
- I don't agree with the Cyclone changes, but it doesn't suck now and it probably won't after the patch comes out either.
- The Rupture is alright, but not great. It's got life left in it for both kiting and brawling and occupies a nice jack-of-all-trades area that means it never sucks and never really shines. I agree it's not the most (read: only) viable cruiser anymore, but that's a ******* good thing man.

As it stands, you're just shitting all over everything and that's just not an effective way to make your voice heard.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#62 - 2013-01-21 04:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Liang Nuren wrote:
The way we got the Minmatar boost the first time around was to present the facts, not make **** up and hope it stuck. The way you're going at it now is just counter productive. For instance:
- The Hurricane has been slightly nerfed, not destroyed. It doesn't suck now, and it won't suck after the patch. Comparing the Harbinger to it favorably - either before or after the patch - shows that you're just out of your ******* mind and have no clue about the game.
- I don't agree with the Cyclone changes, but it doesn't suck now and it probably won't after the patch comes out either.
- The Rupture is alright, but not great. It's got life left in it for both kiting and brawling and occupies a nice jack-of-all-trades area that means it never sucks and never really shines. I agree it's not the most (read: only) viable cruiser anymore, but that's a ******* good thing man.

As it stands, you're just shitting all over everything and that's just not an effective way to make your voice heard.

-Liang

Nah the way I see it is.. you've been proven wrong in the thread. You've said some outright wrong things, instead of having reasonable replies or even posting a fit or two you've just constantly stated how you think whatever when all the evidence is against you. You are too stubborn to accept that you could for one second be wrong, so you are resorting to telling me I'm out of my mind, no clue about the game, and that I'm counter productive. And then you try to make up some stuff that I never said and try to put words into my mouth? Lol hahahaha.

Just because you think that the harbinger (or anything) isn't good doesn't make it so. You need to provide reasons, your posts are not gospel.

Like it was suggested by someone else before, just concede. Either that or post facts and reasoning. Not just "I think this" "I'd beat that in this" "This ship is good because I say so!"

Time to grow up. Time to be a bigboy.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#63 - 2013-01-21 04:56:46 UTC
Comments:
- All evidence is not against me. The Rupture is still a better kiting ship than the Thorax. You seem pretty confident but even in a head to head between them it's not really clear which would win. The Thorax fits you keep putting out are pretty weak on HP and projection and not significantly better in raw DPS.
- The Harbinger is getting absolutely demolished in the patch, and pretty much all feedback about it has said so. The claims that the Hurricane "sucks" or is "the worst" are comparatively ludicrous - both now and then.

Again: I stand by what I've said. Minmatar is coming out poorly in the rebalances. However, it's not nearly to the extent that you make it out to be. And if you want to fix that, you're going to have to do better than sound like a hysterical littleboy.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#64 - 2013-01-21 05:14:27 UTC
Let's take a look at your assertion that the Thorax is a better kiting ship than the Rupture. Right now we seem to be focusing on which would win a theoretical 1v1, despite the fact that's probably not a good measure of the ships. Let's take a look at the vital stats.

Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns
Rupture: 1.7km/s, 29k EHP to Null, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.

Thorax TTL: 80 seconds
Rupture TTL: 138 seconds

Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because it's faster).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#65 - 2013-01-21 05:18:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.

Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters]
Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.

Thorax TTL: 72 seconds
Rupture TTL: 95 seconds

Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).

-Liang

Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!"

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#66 - 2013-01-21 06:13:51 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

So keep your short-sighted and non-constructive posts to yourself please.



Everything else you said didn't really matter but i will address this concern of yours. I base what I said off of what I know and apparently CCP has known for quite sometime.

Oderint Dum Metuant
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#67 - 2013-01-21 09:32:20 UTC
It's like these FOTM pilots have only two steps in their balance scale-

OP
Useless

.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2013-01-21 10:16:20 UTC
I do like a good rant against Liang thread. Especially when she draws it out Smile

My observation is that yes the rupture/ cane have had a hit in recent times, however they still hold the high spot for pure versatility. In a FLEET (none of this 1v1 rubbish lol) canes/ruptures, will constantly be doing decent dmg, with a web, point, and neut. All at at decent speed and with respectable tank. yes yes depending on shield, armor etc. shield you get more gank armor you get webs n things

No Worries
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#69 - 2013-01-21 10:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
This thread is hilarious, OP is either a troll, a 5 yearold or some clown who's incapable of logic and unbiased reasoning, that's probably why he's using a ****** posting alt for it. Perhaps he's all 3 at the same time.

Minnie has been overpowered for solo and small gang warfare and even in some fleet setups. I know it, you know it and the OP knows it. The vast majority of people who fly Minnie don't do it because they're so in synch with the whole minmatar background, they do it because they're OP. To quote the first post: "Personally I never thought the hurricane was "OP"". That right there is where people need to stop reading his drivel and realise he's just a clown.

Also, be happy. Fozzie could have easily removed a mid or low slot instead of that utility high (2 utility highs is retardedly OP on a non-cap using BC), apart from that almost all tier 2 BCs got nerfed in HP etc. Now Minnie is on par with the rest with good and bad points, pros and cons. As it should be.

Deal with it, stop being a 5 yearold and stop voicing your trolly/biased opinions. For any technical reasoning I'll refer to Liang's posts, really no need to state the same twice in this **** thread.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#70 - 2013-01-21 11:21:36 UTC
The minmatar tears in this thread are exquisite.

"We don't have a monopoly on all the good ships anymore. Please buff us."

"Other factions having ships that can beat us is OP."

Oh, and as the amarr fanboi...

The new omen is much improved, but is by no means an 'excellent kiting ship'

No utility high, three mids, and guns that require cap on a hull with a rof bonus. But, like I said, it is still like a zillion times better.

My advice, stop whining and realize that the days of having total superiority in frigates, cruisers, destroyers, tied for best in battlecruisers and command ships is over.

Also, HTFU.
Sigras
Conglomo
#71 - 2013-01-21 11:21:44 UTC
Speed
Damage
Range

Pick two . . .

see cause as minmatar youre used to having all three, but im sorry, now youre like all the rest of us mortals and have to pick two
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#72 - 2013-01-21 11:36:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.

The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.


If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.

EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-01-21 15:12:09 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass.



This.

Also, active/buffer armor tanking being the crap it is...

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#74 - 2013-01-21 16:02:10 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:

Stop grasping at straws.

What balance is this if all they are doing is making one race crap and another wtfOP. Nothing changes the game will still be unbalanced as hell.


They aren't making one race crap and another WTFOP. Hell, you can't even decide which race is WTFOP. First you think it's Gallente, then Amarr, and then Caldari, and then... well, anyone but whatever you've got YOUR SP invested in.

-Liang



liang is right .. they have done a good job balancing so far so let ccp do their work ... only thing id like to see is one of the gallente BC's get some other bonus other than the armor rep .. dont need two bc's with same bonus.


p.s. at this point i can fly pretty much everything so tbh im glad im not caring much about this stuff anymore.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#75 - 2013-01-21 16:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.

The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.


If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.

EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass.


Mega wrong.

The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Lol

Omen sucks? Settle down children.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.

Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters]
Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.

Thorax TTL: 72 seconds
Rupture TTL: 95 seconds

Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).

-Liang

Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!"


Where are you getting these numbers from? What rupture set up is giving you 275 dps at 24kms? How 30k ehp? I don't see how you got that number, did you just make it up again?

Did you remove the nanofiber for another tracking enhancer? At this rate even an ARMOR OMEN will beat that slow piece of crap you call a kiting ship.


337 dps at 24km
1628 speed (your rupture only has 1693 but you rounded it up to 1.7k)
30k ehp (you seem to think massive tank is very important for kiting, well here you go)
cap stability



[Omen, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Energy Burst Aerator I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Warrior II x5

Best part? Remove the trimark and you go faster than the rupture while still doing more DPS and having better tank! Lol

I thought the omen sucked!




Edit:

[Omen, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Burst Aerator I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Warrior II x5

Now it has

378 dps at 24km
1713 speed (armor ship faster than shield rupture lol)
27k ehp
cap stable


And throughout the entire thread you've not posted a single fit only thrown out numbers. Quit making stuff up and post actual facts or gtfo.
vyshnegradsky
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#76 - 2013-01-21 17:04:16 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:
Looking at the new balance notes and what they've done with the T1 cruisers I believe that CCP is going to make minmatar the "crap" race again. Retribution for being good for so long.

Why do I think this way? Well leme point out some things that are bothering me..

The T1 balancing of the cruisers was so good, I loved it. However.. I noticed that minmatar was significantly weaker than before.
The rupture is no longer amazing, it is mearly okay... The stabber only goes fast, and the bellicose is meh. The only ship I think that is well balanced from minmatar T1 cruisers is the scythe. And its a support vessel.

Looking at the new battlecruiser balances I noticed that the already nerfed hurricane is getting yet another nerf.. Personally I never thought the hurricane was "OP", just very overrated.
Its a wonderful ship to fly, one of my favorites... From the looks of it, not only did they already nerf the powergrid... but it is also losing a highslot, getting a weaker capacitor, becoming heavier, more signature radius, less cargo capacity.

Now I don't know much, but I think the hurricane is not going to be worth flying compared to the massively buffed other BCs. But wait... Wasn't the cyclone gaining some popularity with ASBs? They ruined that too. It is becoming a missile boat with 5 missile slots, two gun slots, and a single damage bonus to missiles. Sounds pretty worthless. Will the cyclone ever NOT suck?

If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now? I don't have any missile skills for the terrible cyclone... Does that mean all my training into gunnery goes to waste because CCP wants to split my race of ships into half missile boat half autocannon? The Typhoon is becoming a full missile ship, the claymore is going to become a missile ship, by this design structure they are using... I expect them to make many more minmatar ships into missile ships. And that means I (and many other minmatar pilots) cannot use these ships until we pour all of our training into missiles!

The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships, besides the maelstrom the other BS aren't that good... Their capitals are also pretty terrible.


tl;dr: Whats the deal CCP? I know minmatar were "winmatar" for a while, but that doesn't mean they should be **** now. Balance is not punishing one race for being good by nerfing them.


confirming OP is an idiot

This one's a bit over the edge guys.

Locked for breaking... well, pretty much all the rules.

  • CCP Falcon
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#77 - 2013-01-21 17:09:54 UTC
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#78 - 2013-01-21 17:20:56 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:
vyshnegradsky wrote:


confirming OP is an idiot


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=vyshnegradsky#kills


So where's your kills?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#79 - 2013-01-21 17:23:07 UTC
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2013-01-21 17:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
bigboy boss wrote:


Liang Nuren wrote:
Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.

Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters]
Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.

Thorax TTL: 72 seconds
Rupture TTL: 95 seconds

Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).

-Liang

Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!"


Where are you getting these numbers from? What rupture set up is giving you 275 dps at 24kms? How 30k ehp? I don't see how you got that number, did you just make it up again?

Did you remove the nanofiber for another tracking enhancer? At this rate even an ARMOR OMEN will beat that slow piece of crap you call a kiting ship.


337 dps at 24km
1628 speed (your rupture only has 1693 but you rounded it up to 1.7k)
30k ehp (you seem to think massive tank is very important for kiting, well here you go)
cap stability




I can get those numbers on a rupture quite easily fyi... (il give liang the 7m/s lol *cough* straw clutching *cough*)

Tank is important because it means you dont die as quickly... (the 30k is against Anti matter....)

You omen fit also needs a pg implant, has only 25k vs barrage and other such crazy important things in 1v1 stuff

edit: also there's an extra hi slot on the rupture... i like them :D im going to say SB cos of drones and in my head this would only ever happen in wonderland

No Worries