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Minmatar are going to become the crap, CCP wants retribution not balance
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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#41 - 2013-01-21 03:17:17 UTC
A thorax with just a MWD will go 345m/s faster then Rupture with just a MWD. I can fit 425's and a HAM to a shield Rupture and get about 517 gross DPS using Barrage, two gyro, two tracking enhancers, and of course drones. 3.9 km optimal and 29.5km falloff. The HAM hits to 20km as do the drones. A Nuetron Thorax needs a little fitting help. I get 558 DPS with Null and Drones. 7.2 km optimal and 11.4 km falloff. The Rupture has 4k - 6k EHP more depending on fittings. In this scenario the rupture is comparable. It's versus the other combat cruisers that it really sucks.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#42 - 2013-01-21 03:18:35 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:

An unfit thorax will be faster than an unfit rupture, and a similarly fit thorax will be faster than a similarly fit rupture.

I don't really see where you are going with this.


I think it would depend on the fitting, and once we start talking about fittings it becomes a much more concrete discussion. Why don't you show me this Thorax fit that obsoletes all kiting Ruptures (and Stabbers)?

-Liang


Have two

[Thorax, Rail Kitting Thorax]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Warp Disruptor II
Small Capacitor Booster II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

200mm Railgun II
200mm Railgun II
200mm Railgun II
200mm Railgun II
200mm Railgun II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Goes 2km a second.
Puts 382 DPS at 18km optimal, 20km falloff.
Full flight of warrior IIs plus 25 more for ECM drones, shield bots... whatever. (No "medium drones are bad for kiting" argument)


[Rupture, Rupture]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II

425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

1.8 km a second. (200 slower than thorax)
372 DPS at 3.5 optimal + 23 falloff (in falloff more like 280 DPS at 17km)
Smaller drone bay than thorax, can only fit one flight of smalls drones plus one.



You might say "oooh well you used railguns blah blah" I've got that covered.

[Thorax, Neutron Thorax]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Warp Disruptor II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Warrior II x5

453 dps at 9km optimal + 14 falloff (at 17kms 330 dps and out DPSes the rupture to 22kms.) Want to brawl? NP, load antimatter and get 548 dps.


And the stabber? pfft, doesn't even come close.

Zarnak Wulf wrote:
A thorax with just a MWD will go 345m/s faster then Rupture with just a MWD. I can fit 425's and a HAM to a shield Rupture and get about 517 gross DPS using Barrage, two gyro, two tracking enhancers, and of course drones. 3.9 km optimal and 29.5km falloff. The HAM hits to 20km as do the drones. A Nuetron Thorax needs a little fitting help. I get 558 DPS with Null and Drones. 7.2 km optimal and 11.4 km falloff. The Rupture has 4k - 6k EHP more depending on fittings. In this scenario the rupture is comparable. It's versus the other combat cruisers that it really sucks.


These numbers do not add up. I've set up a rupture with 425mms, a T2 HAM, hobgoblins, barrage ammo and T2 rage missiles... Overheated... And I only get 484 dps.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#43 - 2013-01-21 03:18:59 UTC
Aralieus wrote:
The tears in this thread are simply delicious. It's about dam time CCP knocked winmatar down a few pegs tbh, if you think for 1 second they weren't OP then take a look at most used ships in pvp on a killboard (cba to find it atm) and what you guys are dealing with now is nothing new to all those who didn't hop on the FOTM train when it pulled out of station last time. I hate to use a played out internet meme but HTFU

-Exclusively Maxed Amarr Pilot


Some of us are old enough to remember minmatar being the most skill-point intensive race in the game with the least useful ships. The rifter, rupture and vagabond where the shining and only examples of minmatar ships that really shone. Now all 3 are mediocre.

TBH i looked at your KB and saw very little action. Normally i don't bother with these things because, like me, people will have more accounts and some will be fleet based mega KB accounts and some will be more solo based.

But the time-frame in your post represents someone who has only played eve for 2 years in a serious way (no ones first year in eve is ever a good reflection of balance when they die). I've been playing since 06' and maxed out minmatar ships. I jumped on the FOTM train. it was called gallente (blasterthron and nos domi's with ECM, plus ishtar pwn). Then it was amarr (nano damp curse, nano zealots, DPS geddons). Then minmatars time came to shine... and tbh that's more down to factors other than minmatar themselves, but eve's climate as a whole.

So please, don't act like this is justified and needs to be done. The old forums where coated in signatures such as:

"Buff Minmatar or grapple with the blind man!"

and

"Welcome to Eve, Please select difficult:

Easy
Medium
Hard
Minmatar"

So keep your short-sighted and non-constructive posts to yourself please.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#44 - 2013-01-21 03:24:38 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:

[Thorax, Rail Kitting Thorax]

Goes 2km a second.
Puts 382 DPS at 18km optimal, 20km falloff.
Full flight of warrior IIs plus 25 more for ECM drones, shield bots... whatever.


I was pretty sure you'd lead with a Rail Thorax build. The real trick with it is going to be trying to minimize your transversal in a kiting fight - by attempting to push the Rupture or by attempting to make him chase you. It might work, but I remain skeptical of ~rails~.

Quote:

[Thorax, Neutron Thorax]

453 dps at 9km optimal + 14 falloff (at 17kms 330 dps and out DPSes the rupture to 22kms.) Want to brawl? NP, load antimatter and get 548 dps.


I'm pretty sure that Thorax will lose on EHP alone.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-01-21 03:31:42 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:

[Thorax, Rail Kitting Thorax]

Goes 2km a second.
Puts 382 DPS at 18km optimal, 20km falloff.
Full flight of warrior IIs plus 25 more for ECM drones, shield bots... whatever.


I was pretty sure you'd lead with a Rail Thorax build. The real trick with it is going to be trying to minimize your transversal in a kiting fight - by attempting to push the Rupture or by attempting to make him chase you. It might work, but I remain skeptical of ~rails~.

Quote:

[Thorax, Neutron Thorax]

453 dps at 9km optimal + 14 falloff (at 17kms 330 dps and out DPSes the rupture to 22kms.) Want to brawl? NP, load antimatter and get 548 dps.


I'm pretty sure that Thorax will lose on EHP alone.

-Liang


Okay.. Drop the cap booster, add an invul.. gets you about 22k EHP, compared to the ruptures 25k.
3k EHP isn't going to matter when the rupture can only shoot explosive/kin damage to the thorax, and the thorax does more DPS plus thermal/kin damage vs shields. Your a smart guy.. Do you honestly think the rupture has a chance? Lol


Go fly that rail thorax, it doesn't disappoint. Cap booster makes it able to kite all day long.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#46 - 2013-01-21 03:35:48 UTC
In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km

The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...

That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-01-21 03:37:17 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km

The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...

That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm.


Plus not to mention that loading ammo into hybrids takes 5 seconds while the rupture has to wait for 10 seconds to change to close range ammo if the thorax decides to dive in.


I seriously don't see how people think minmatar are going to be okay after the nerfs.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#48 - 2013-01-21 03:38:50 UTC
P.s.

I'm excited about the new Deimos. If they move a hi to a mid then i have my new ship. Literally wont touch my vaga at that point.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#49 - 2013-01-21 03:42:46 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km

The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...

That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm.


Plus not to mention that loading ammo into hybrids takes 5 seconds while the rupture has to wait for 10 seconds to change to close range ammo if the thorax decides to dive in.


I seriously don't see how people think minmatar are going to be okay after the nerfs.


Believe it or not i don't have a problem with the changes. The issue is that eve is stuck in a rut right now in terms of solo and small scale PVP. Everything happens on a gate and on stations - so brick tanks and logi always win. There would need to be some SERIOUS changes to eve as a whole for that to improve.

These posts are kinda bickering over small issues that don't touch on the bigger issues that effect us all: Eve is stale and requires 4 hours of work for 10 minutes of fun. Losec is good fun sometimes because people there are generally only there to fight, but the whole sec status/faction standings things just ruins the game and pidgeon holes you into doing only one thing with that charatcer.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-01-21 03:45:23 UTC
Ah, EFT... Look at the Winmatards at it, it's as if they've never flown medium blasterboats, or medium railboats (not that anyone do). I'll believe it when ppl starts to undock with these.Roll
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-01-21 03:46:21 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Maeltstome wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km

The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...

That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm.


Plus not to mention that loading ammo into hybrids takes 5 seconds while the rupture has to wait for 10 seconds to change to close range ammo if the thorax decides to dive in.


I seriously don't see how people think minmatar are going to be okay after the nerfs.


Believe it or not i don't have a problem with the changes. The issue is that eve is stuck in a rut right now in terms of solo and small scale PVP. Everything happens on a gate and on stations - so brick tanks and logi always win. There would need to be some SERIOUS changes to eve as a whole for that to improve.

These posts are kinda bickering over small issues that don't touch on the bigger issues that effect us all: Eve is stale and requires 4 hours of work for 10 minutes of fun. Losec is good fun sometimes because people there are generally only there to fight, but the whole sec status/faction standings things just ruins the game and pidgeon holes you into doing only one thing with that charatcer.


I agree, but all I'm saying is I'm tired of CCPs idea of balance which is something along the lines of ...

Ok.. lets make this race really OP for a year then next year it'll be this races turn... then etc etc.

sabre906 wrote:
Ah, EFT... Look at the Winmatards at it, it's as if they've never flown medium blasterboats, or medium railboats (not that anyone do). I'll believe it when ppl starts to undock with these.Roll


0/10.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#52 - 2013-01-21 03:46:35 UTC
Meh. I forgot to take the damage implants out.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#53 - 2013-01-21 03:50:19 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:

Okay.. Drop the cap booster, add an invul.. gets you about 22k EHP, compared to the ruptures 25k.
3k EHP isn't going to matter when the rupture can only shoot explosive/kin damage to the thorax, and the thorax does more DPS plus thermal/kin damage vs shields. Your a smart guy.. Do you honestly think the rupture has a chance? Lol

Go fly that rail thorax, it doesn't disappoint. Cap booster makes it able to kite all day long.


You need the cap booster to have the capacitor to actually kill the Rupture. Yes, the Rupture has a chance.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#54 - 2013-01-21 03:51:10 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:

I agree, but all I'm saying is I'm tired of CCPs idea of balance which is something along the lines of ...

Ok.. lets make this race really OP for a year then next year it'll be this races turn... then etc etc.


So you're saying that you wish CCP would spend more time balancing the game than they have in the last few years? Well, you're certainly an observant one. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#55 - 2013-01-21 03:53:41 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km

The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...

That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm.


See, but now you're talking about the Thorax as it was meant to be flown: get up in someone's face and try to brawl them down. That's not kiting. It'd lose horribly to a brawler fit Rupture and win gloriously vs a kiting rupture. /shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#56 - 2013-01-21 03:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Liang Nuren wrote:

See, but now you're talking about the Thorax as it was meant to be flown: get up in someone's face and try to brawl them down. That's not kiting. It'd lose horribly to a brawler fit Rupture and win gloriously vs a kiting rupture. /shrug

-Liang


As a kiting ship the rupture literally has nothing going for it besides being a little bit more tanky. In every other aspect it loses. Yet you still say that the rupture is the magically better kiter.

You just ignore what other people say and keep posting your own nonsense. Learn to take a loss.

Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:

I agree, but all I'm saying is I'm tired of CCPs idea of balance which is something along the lines of ...

Ok.. lets make this race really OP for a year then next year it'll be this races turn... then etc etc.


So you're saying that you wish CCP would spend more time balancing the game than they have in the last few years? Well, you're certainly an observant one. Roll

-Liang


Stop grasping at straws.

What balance is this if all they are doing is making one race crap and another wtfOP. Nothing changes the game will still be unbalanced as hell.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#57 - 2013-01-21 03:59:45 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:

Stop grasping at straws.

What balance is this if all they are doing is making one race crap and another wtfOP. Nothing changes the game will still be unbalanced as hell.


They aren't making one race crap and another WTFOP. Hell, you can't even decide which race is WTFOP. First you think it's Gallente, then Amarr, and then Caldari, and then... well, anyone but whatever you've got YOUR SP invested in.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#58 - 2013-01-21 04:01:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:

Stop grasping at straws.

What balance is this if all they are doing is making one race crap and another wtfOP. Nothing changes the game will still be unbalanced as hell.


They aren't making one race crap and another WTFOP. Hell, you can't even decide which race is WTFOP. First you think it's Gallente, then Amarr, and then Caldari, and then... well, anyone but whatever you've got YOUR SP invested in.

-Liang


rofl, you literally just made that up.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#59 - 2013-01-21 04:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
bigboy boss wrote:
rofl, you literally just made that up.


So I take it you no longer believe the Omen is the best kiting cruiser and the Harbinger is "a beast"? You've been laying it on thick about how every race but Minmatar is just full of amazing WTFOP ships. Then you say such ******** **** as "The Hurricane is the worst BC!"

Straight

-Liang

Ed: Even if Minmatar is coming out of this rebalancing a little weak (and they are coming out A LITTLE weak), people like you and your forum warrioring are not the way to solve the problem.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-01-21 04:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:
rofl, you literally just made that up.


So I take it you no longer believe the Omen is the best kiting cruiser and the Harbinger is "a beast"? You've been laying it on thick about how every race but Minmatar is just full of amazing WTFOP ships. Then you say such ******** **** as "The Hurricane is the worst BC!"

Straight

-Liang


Nope I never said the hurricane is "the worst" BC.
I just said it sucked. Learn the difference. The worst is probably the cyclone. Lol

The omen is an amazing kiting cruiser.

The harbinger is a beast.

The thorax is a great cruiser that can do it all.. Can it kite better than an omen? IDK. But atleast they are competitive instead of being blown out of the water like all the minmatar crap. No matter how much you try to convince yourself.. The minmatar ships are just not good anymore..

Kiting rupture? Not good.

Brawler rupture? Even worse.

Stabber? Give me a break.