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Minmatar are going to become the crap, CCP wants retribution not balance
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yer mammy
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-01-21 00:29:49 UTC
it is annoying to see what they're doing to some of these ships, but you also can't call yourself a true minmatar pilot without having both gunnery and missile skills.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#22 - 2013-01-21 01:35:21 UTC
Name Family Name wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Yeah this started back with frig changes making the rifter obsolete.
The cane changes are making it worse than obsolete which is a damn same.
The min BSs have never been good, cruisers are fine, T2 lineup is still good (yet to be balanced ofc).
the trend definitely has been to sh*t on minmatar these past 6 months tho.



I kind of agree the rifter needs a little finetuning, but calling it obsolete is an exageration. It just went from being the only viable T1 frig since the games existance to a mediocre one.

I completely disagree on the Cane. Most fits just need minor modifications to keep it viable and it was flat out obsoleting any cruiser in Battlecruisers online for far too long.

All in all, I think CCP just dropped the background perspective when it comes to ship-balancing. E.g. Minmatar exceled in small, cheap ships as you'd expect from slave-rebels specialicing in Guerilla tactics, whereas anything Amarr exorbitantly sucked sub-BS, as you'd expect from a traditionally large, rich empire.

Since the background was dropped in all other areas, it's only logical they drop it when it comes to ship balance.

The impression there was a trend for Mins being shat upon during the last months just results from the fact that they have been vastly overpowered in low-cost ships and these were the classes that were rebalanced.

They deserve even some more brown, warm love when it comes to Projectiles in combination with TE's, fitting requirements, sig radius, as well as a review of armor vs. shield tanking.

Maybe when CCP do all the latter, I'll consider flying something else again.



1. Gameplay and RP fluff don't mix.. Amarr being a rich empire is a terrible reason for their sub-bs's being bad

2. The Rifter is ****, its one of four t1 frigs i have never died to while being the one out of those four i have fought the most often.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Moonasha
Orcses and Goblinz
#23 - 2013-01-21 02:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonasha
Excuse me.. minmatar seem worse off now because they were absolutely the goto race for pvp. Just look at the versatility of the god damn cane. And the rupture. QQ. Try flying amarr and being limited to 2 or 3 ships pre changes.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#24 - 2013-01-21 02:26:17 UTC
Read lots of interesting stuff. Someone claimed the omen was bad. Interesting. i'd rate it the best attack cruiser right now, period. Better projected damage than a stabber and more HP than a thorax, i don't see what's bad about it. It's speed might be 'slow' - but it's still on par with the thorax and better than the caracal due to low-slot usage. Plus "DAT DRONE BAY".

The rifter is bad. Worst frigate in the game. Has no role, no benefits, no dps, no tank, no drones, no speed.

Hurricane is becoming the hur-dur-icane. It's going to have lower dps, tank, speed and agility that almost every other BC. I don't understand why balance means 'nerf' The cane and drake where shining example of the BC category. So they are basically nerfing instead of buffing, which is pointless.

Stabber btw is awful. Truly awful. The rupture is out-brawled and out-kited by a thorax. Don't even think about using a vexor against it, cause it;s laughable. The maller btw has potential, but it doesn't fit well into the current meta of kiting but has the benefits of laser projection, even if it is a brick.

Basically the minmatar line-up is being turned on its head. it's ships are becoming slower and they universally are having their bonused damage slots made 1 less than another races equivalent. And that it's, they are become a mid-ground race. No advantages what so-ever over any 1 race. In reply to the dev blog statement about the cyclone: If you are having trouble distinguishing the cyclone from the drake its because you are awful at Eve. it's already completely different from it and useful. What you are doing now is making it super awful as opposed to 'sub-par but can ASB lol'

I fly all 4 races and here is my current line-up of ships slown:

Talos: Best Tier3 BC for anything other than 50-100km BLAP. I love it.
Dominix: Superb. DDA's revolutionised this ship.
Vagabond: I fly it when im too lazy to scout myself but don't want to die to a blob. It can't kill anything though without links and a faction point. Sometimes things follow me off-gate and forget to warp away.
Taranis: I hated it for ages, but recently re-discovered why i loved it for years.
Malediction: Best interceptor tackler when under 5km
Tornado: I use it for trolling people who station camp me. 1-shotting frigs though is about as good as it gets outside of large fleets.
Vexor: Supreme cruiser.
Thorax: Will use it when my vexor FINALLY dies.
Sleipnir: Utter monster of a ship. CCP, make all minnie ships like this and i'll do hideously enjoyable things to you.
Loki: I refuse to buy one a new one. Worst tank, dps and EW of all Strat cruisers. Linked faction proteus is a terrifying things. Loki is 'meh'.
Prophecy: It's a better AC boat than the cyclone. It also fits amazingly into the current meta.
Drake: This ship is just hard to beat in most situations. I hate it. But i can't find anything better than it.
Slicer: It's a crusader, but not terrible.

Ships i will never touch again:
Stabber. Rifter. Rupture.

Ship i will be flying when i need replacements:
Megathron, Omen/Zealot, Legion,

TL;DR

Minmatar are going the way of the dinosaur. When people finally undock and stop chasing their targets 200km off-gate they will realise why you don't fly them.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#25 - 2013-01-21 02:27:39 UTC
Moonasha wrote:
Excuse me.. minmatar seem worse off now because they were absolutely the goto race for pvp. Just look at the versatility of the god damn cane. And the rupture. QQ. Try flying amarr and being limited to 2 or 3 ships pre changes.


Cane is till ok. It's not a death monster like most people make out though.

The rupture is awful. Just try and find a rupture fit that isn't mediocre.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-01-21 02:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:
Looking at the new balance notes and what they've done with the T1 cruisers I believe that CCP is going to make minmatar the "crap" race again. Retribution for being good for so long.

Why do I think this way? Well leme point out some things that are bothering me..

The T1 balancing of the cruisers was so good, I loved it. However.. I noticed that minmatar was significantly weaker than before.
The rupture is no longer amazing, it is mearly okay... The stabber only goes fast, and the bellicose is meh. The only ship I think that is well balanced from minmatar T1 cruisers is the scythe. And its a support vessel.

Looking at the new battlecruiser balances I noticed that the already nerfed hurricane is getting yet another nerf.. Personally I never thought the hurricane was "OP", just very overrated.
Its a wonderful ship to fly, one of my favorites... From the looks of it, not only did they already nerf the powergrid... but it is also losing a highslot, getting a weaker capacitor, becoming heavier, more signature radius, less cargo capacity.

Now I don't know much, but I think the hurricane is not going to be worth flying compared to the massively buffed other BCs. But wait... Wasn't the cyclone gaining some popularity with ASBs? They ruined that too. It is becoming a missile boat with 5 missile slots, two gun slots, and a single damage bonus to missiles. Sounds pretty worthless. Will the cyclone ever NOT suck?

If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now? I don't have any missile skills for the terrible cyclone... Does that mean all my training into gunnery goes to waste because CCP wants to split my race of ships into half missile boat half autocannon? The Typhoon is becoming a full missile ship, the claymore is going to become a missile ship, by this design structure they are using... I expect them to make many more minmatar ships into missile ships. And that means I (and many other minmatar pilots) cannot use these ships until we pour all of our training into missiles!

The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships, besides the maelstrom the other BS aren't that good... Their capitals are also pretty terrible.


tl;dr: Whats the deal CCP? I know minmatar were "winmatar" for a while, but that doesn't mean they should be **** now. Balance is not punishing one race for being good by nerfing them.


Breacher = win
Slasher = decent
Thrasher = win
Talwar = decent
Rupture = decent
Bellicose = win
Cyclone = decent
Hurricane = good

As opposed too..

Punisher = ****
tormentor = decent
Coercer = good
Dragoon = decent
Maller = **** (Being semi competent at ab cruiser gangs does not count)
Omen = ****
Proph = brick
Harb = decent


The **** are you complaining about?



EDIT: As to the nerfs to the cane.. Have you ever tried to fit a harbinger? like at all? Cane is still a LOT easier to fit, and its faster and it can actually hit stuff thats close up. LTP


Did you just call the Omen "****"? You've got no idea what you are talking about.

With the coming changes the prophecy will be a monster. Actually try to think so you realize that we are talking about the future updates here and not about the current state of balance. I know its hard but try.

And the harbinger is a beast atm, I don't know what you are talking about.

Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:

Either troll or daft.

So instead of answering a point you discount it as a 'troll'?


Yep, you fail to realize how a stabber with anemic DPS isn't worth even mentioning yet you keep yelling that "SPEED AND KITE = WIN!!!!111" Not only does the stabber have **** poor DPS, in falloff its doing even less than the already terrible DPS it gets on paper. So the fact that you think a stabber is a ship worth using makes you a troll or daft.

You consider drones to be a weapon system? Well minmatar have drones too, so I guess minmatar have to train THREE weapon systems now... plus armor and shields. So according to you minmatar need to train to do everything, and its okay that they have subpar ships even though their SP needs to be double/triple of their adversaries.

Right... Get real.

sabre906 wrote:
I don't see Winmatards ditching their boats for the new and improved Thorax en mass.Roll


I would if I had the right SP... The thorax is an AMAZING ship right now.

The problem is CCP isn't balancing, they are just making one race the "win butan" all over again. And thats a problem.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#27 - 2013-01-21 02:39:33 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

Hurricane is becoming the hur-dur-icane. It's going to have lower dps, tank, speed and agility that almost every other BC. I don't understand why balance means 'nerf' The cane and drake where shining example of the BC category. So they are basically nerfing instead of buffing, which is pointless.


The Hurricane is not being noticeably nerfed.

Quote:

Stabber btw is awful. Truly awful. The rupture is out-brawled and out-kited by a thorax. Don't even think about using a vexor against it, cause it;s laughable. The maller btw has potential, but it doesn't fit well into the current meta of kiting but has the benefits of laser projection, even if it is a brick.


Saying the Rupture is out brawled by the Thorax might make some sense, but saying it's out-kited is just nonsense.

Quote:
Minmatar are going the way of the dinosaur. When people finally undock and stop chasing their targets 200km off-gate they will realise why you don't fly them.


There's nothing really wrong with Minmatar ships today. There's just nothing really great about them either.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#28 - 2013-01-21 02:41:18 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:

And the harbinger is a beast atm, I don't know what you are talking about.


What the **** are you talking about? The only BC currently worse than the Binger is the Prophecy. Post nerf, it is beyond question the worst BC. You should get your head examined if you think the Cane is bad and the Binger is "a beast".

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-01-21 02:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Liang Nuren wrote:


The Hurricane is not being noticeably nerfed.


Wrong, Its been nerfed and its being nerfed again soon.


Liang Nuren wrote:

Saying the Rupture is out brawled by the Thorax might make some sense, but saying it's out-kited is just nonsense.


Wrong again, go look at the ship stats and realize how wrong you are.





edit: I'll add this here so your credibility shows above.

Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:

And the harbinger is a beast atm, I don't know what you are talking about.


What the **** are you talking about? The only BC currently worse than the Binger is the Prophecy. Post nerf, it is beyond question the worst BC. You should get your head examined if you think the Cane is bad and the Binger is "a beast".

-Liang


I dunno, just that one of the best PvPers in the game said it was "very powerful at the moment" a few days ago.
Plus it is getting a buff with the new patch notes, so yeah I'd take his word and my own experience over what you say.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#30 - 2013-01-21 02:45:28 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


The Hurricane is not being noticeably nerfed.


Wrong, Its been nerfed and its being nerfed again soon.


Liang Nuren wrote:

Saying the Rupture is out brawled by the Thorax might make some sense, but saying it's out-kited is just nonsense.


Wrong again, go look at the ship stats and realize how wrong you are.


I am looking at the ship stats.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#31 - 2013-01-21 02:47:24 UTC
For camping, you will still need artillery, no matter how badly they nerf winmatar. Also good luck keeping point on a stabber with a maller or thorax. Twisted
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-01-21 02:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
For camping, you will still need artillery, no matter how badly they nerf winmatar. Also good luck keeping point on a stabber with a maller or thorax. Twisted


So it goes fast, big flippin deal.

Only thing its good for is bumping.

Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


The Hurricane is not being noticeably nerfed.


Wrong, Its been nerfed and its being nerfed again soon.


Liang Nuren wrote:

Saying the Rupture is out brawled by the Thorax might make some sense, but saying it's out-kited is just nonsense.


Wrong again, go look at the ship stats and realize how wrong you are.


I am looking at the ship stats.

-Liang


Rupture speed 210 m/s.

Thorax 240 m/s.

Same exact slot layout... So what was this you were saying about the rupture out kiting the thorax?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#33 - 2013-01-21 02:49:18 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:

Rupture speed 210 m/s.

Thorax 240 m/s.

Same exact slot layout... So what was this you were saying about the rupture out kiting the thorax?


There is more to kiting than base speed.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#34 - 2013-01-21 02:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:

Rupture speed 210 m/s.

Thorax 240 m/s.

Same exact slot layout... So what was this you were saying about the rupture out kiting the thorax?


There is more to kiting than base speed.

-Liang


You mean like the agility which is almost identical? Or how about the inertia, which is almost identical also...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#35 - 2013-01-21 02:51:32 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:
You mean like the agility which is almost identical?


Generally speaking, kiting happens when someone fits their ship and undocks. Unless you're suggesting that an unfit Thorax can kite an unfit Rupture?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-01-21 02:54:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:
You mean like the agility which is almost identical?


Generally speaking, kiting happens when someone fits their ship and undocks. Unless you're suggesting that an unfit Thorax can kite an unfit Rupture?

-Liang


An unfit thorax will be faster than an unfit rupture, and a similarly fit thorax will be faster than a similarly fit rupture.

I don't really see where you are going with this.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#37 - 2013-01-21 02:58:00 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:

An unfit thorax will be faster than an unfit rupture, and a similarly fit thorax will be faster than a similarly fit rupture.

I don't really see where you are going with this.


I think it would depend on the fitting, and once we start talking about fittings it becomes a much more concrete discussion. Why don't you show me this Thorax fit that obsoletes all kiting Ruptures (and Stabbers)?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#38 - 2013-01-21 03:00:28 UTC
The tears in this thread are simply delicious. It's about dam time CCP knocked winmatar down a few pegs tbh, if you think for 1 second they weren't OP then take a look at most used ships in pvp on a killboard (cba to find it atm) and what you guys are dealing with now is nothing new to all those who didn't hop on the FOTM train when it pulled out of station last time. I hate to use a played out internet meme but HTFU

-Exclusively Maxed Amarr Pilot

Oderint Dum Metuant
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#39 - 2013-01-21 03:10:41 UTC
Don't want to be a total **** Liang but you may have to concede this point. The thorax does more DPS than the rupture, This makes it projection equal to it within combat range. Add in drones...

The thorax is also faster than a rupture, even with a 1600 plate and remember it's an attack cruiser, so it's designed to be fast. The rupture would definately be a front-runner if they had kept then 6/3/5 layout and simply given it another turret. Rupture has always had insanely high grid for a 4-gun. Instead they gave it another mid (making it even more like the stabber) and took away a potential neut hi-slot for winning cap-wars against energy-based boats.

I get that you're hating on the harby, cause it's mediocre and best and is being made trash with the changes... but minmatar have been changed in a way that reflects absolutely no direction or makes any sense. They have some shield boats, some gun boats, some missile boats and wierd slot layouts that don't let them really excell at anything.

The arty cane still feels good, but i actually tore an AC hurricane in half a few days ago in an auto-cannon prophecy by fitting a capless tank/dps (yes there where other people on the KM, but it wasnt even close to winning with or without other people i barely got into 60% armor). It needs the speed/agility advantage like ALL minmatar ships to hold that range, even without kiting, that allows the lower DPS of autocannons to project more real dps.

Then again, based on our other discussions... we both know that doesn't really exist anymore.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#40 - 2013-01-21 03:16:41 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Don't want to be a total **** Liang but you may have to concede this point. The thorax does more DPS than the rupture, This makes it projection equal to it within combat range. Add in drones...


The Thorax does indeed do more DPS, but only has equal projection when you include the drones. Unfortunately, the flight of mediums the Thorax can field is unlikely to be meaningful in a fight involving kiting ships like this. Furthermore, the EHP difference is quite substantial indeed. The Thorax is alright for kiting, but trying to claim its superior is just hogwash.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.