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Is the suspect flag a joke?
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Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-01-21 09:52:48 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
People say right: suspect flag atm is new can baiting system. Made especially by CCP this way. Even new "dueling" system is made compatible with "can baiting" in mind. Organized groups will always be able to bait n00bs with all these systems.

Usually in Dodixie you see Rebirth/CAR3/STEAL guys working together. It's like 5-10 persons who will answer to any attack to any suspect. They even use NPC RR chars (who is protected too). That's why in Dodixie you usually see 1-3 suspects "from different corps" and no one smart attacks them. They usually get occasional newbee who really think CCP could make system WHICH HURTS BAD GUYS Shocked
Lol


On a more serious note the old proposition for the suspect flag was a joke. Take a suspect flag and everyone and everything in high sec can shoot you but if you retaliate you get CONCORDED... The ability to defend yourself under any circumstance is and should be the golden rule in EVE. Free kills under the watchful eye of CONCORD would have really been a joke. If this had happened I doubt very much that people would complain about their free kills even if they normally would never have entered into "pvp" otherwise. Killing all non-wardec pvp in high sec would have removed aspects of the game that some people like, just to ensure that greedy high sec players looking for free kills don't get conned into losing a ship for the first time in 18 month is completely unjustifiable. Nothing is stopping people from learning how to spot scams and baiting tactics and then not fall for them other than their own laziness. No one should ever have their life made easier because they are too lazy to learn, learning is how life is supposed to get easier.

The crimewatch system is not designed to help or hinder the "bad guys". The greatness of the system is that it is completely neutral. Your actions have consequences and that's it. Now, your so called "bad guys" have learned to use the system to con the unwary but it is NOT the system's fault that you didn't learn the system as they did. I haven't set foot in high sec in years and I love the new system now I only have to worry about GCC flagging and that means shooting pods, everything else is just business as usual. My sec status is low enough that for all intents and purposes I am suspect flagged at all times anyway. But even in 2008 I would never fight anything in high sec and I would never play station games anywhere (still don't), I learned very early on that pvp in high sec is a trap or a suicide gank. If you're not setting the trap, you're falling into it. Station games are always lame but dockblocking is silly, as again there are (I gather) some people who legitimately 1v1 in high sec using the suspect flag and denying them docking rights for 15 minutes is just not justified and it's not worth the effort it would take to differentiate between the instances and give different flags when you could just do nothing and ignore everyone else in high sec and do your thing. The limited engagement flag was great for keeping others from intervening in an agreed on fight. Just learn to ignore the orange skull, the game should not be changed so you are always comfortable with what you see on your overview, so no dockblocking for suspect flags.

SS hits maybe but it's so easy to improve sec status that it would be a pointless gesture.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Ronan Connor
#42 - 2013-01-21 09:58:39 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Why did CCP implement Limited Engagements in the first place?

To me is this only another complication of the mechanic. If they had made it so that anyone attacking a suspect player would become suspect, too, then it would have been more powerful with the chance to go viral.

All LEs do is to give players delusions of fair fights, while it leaves questions open and the unknown then scares some players off. It would be better if LEs were a completely isolated mechanic and only to allow duels, but they should not exists as a result of an attack on a suspect player.

It seems the suspect flag and the mechanic was born out of narrow view on how players shall police themselves and then strings got attached to keep it limited, but it is exactly those limits that players always will keep pushing.

Why the limitation and why not a simpler mechanic and more explosions?

Yeah... No!
Suspect flag is a try to get high sec bears to get their feet wet and try them with pvp.

What you are proposing would only lead to baiting and the idea of a "crime watch" would be nullified.

"Law enforcement" become suspect themselfs? Common, please try it in your town with the local police. I shall be happy to see the outcome Lol
Ronan Connor
#43 - 2013-01-21 10:01:03 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
On a more serious note the old proposition for the suspect flag was a joke. Take a suspect flag and everyone and everything in high sec can shoot you but if you retaliate you get CONCORDED... The ability to defend yourself under any circumstance is and should be the golden rule in EVE. Free kills under the watchful eye of CONCORD would have really been a joke.

This arent free kills. You can defend YOURSELF. Inviting friends to gank your opponent will lead to be rightfully concorded.
Whitehound
#44 - 2013-01-21 10:09:09 UTC
Ronan Connor wrote:
"Law enforcement" become suspect themselfs? Common, please try it in your town with the local police. I shall be happy to see the outcome Lol

Utter nonsense. Just because you want to play the sheriff and kill someone does not mean you are now the good guy.

The suspect flag is called the suspect flag, because it is suspect what you have done. It does not mean you are guilty. When someone takes from your wreck or can can this be a friend, too. You only think it is someone with ill intentions and generally bad. If you then allow anyone to come and shoot them out of their ship then that is just as suspect.

Or do you walk with a gun into a shop and when you see someone stealing from a shelf do you shoot them? ...

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-01-21 11:25:30 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

The crimewatch system is not designed to help or hinder the "bad guys". The greatness of the system is that it is completely neutral. Your actions have consequences and that's it. Now, your so called "bad guys" have learned to use the system to con the unwary but it is NOT the system's fault that you didn't learn the system as they did.

well.
"bad guys" have learned it and now they bait n00bs.
"good guys" have learned it and now they ignore "bad guys" with suspect flag.

Result: suspects outside of a station, no one aggroes (except occasional guests ans n00bs) and comments about "balls" in local.

System works as intended? Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Vince Snetterton
#46 - 2013-01-21 16:50:28 UTC
The more comments I read, he more I am convinced that the suspect flag mechanic is indeed flawed.

The game mechanic should be changed, to either:

a. A player with a suspect flag can't dock in a high sec station.
b. Anyone who assists the suspect immediately gains their own suspect flag.

Though both changes would still leave loopholes, I think b. is a better choice.

I strongly doubt that a bunch of logi's would undock knowing they will be targets also.
The potential of an organized vigilante group waiting for them outside of the station grows exponentially if there is a target rich environment outside a station.
Suddenly, a vigilante group with a few Rooks can nullify those logi's, and it is lights out for the original target.

And if they dock back up, well then, the issue of suspects parked outside a station goes away since there are no suspect flags outside.
Whitehound
#47 - 2013-01-21 17:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Vince Snetterton wrote:
The game mechanic should be changed, to either:

a. A player with a suspect flag can't dock in a high sec station.
b. Anyone who assists the suspect immediately gains their own suspect flag.

Though both changes would still leave loopholes, I think b. is a better choice.

I would go as far with b) as to say that anyone who interacts with the suspect becomes suspect.

Being suspect does not equal guilt. The guilt always needs to be determined, either by a judge or a jury, and in this case the players.

The players can then enforce their own laws and the enforcing players should not get any form of protection but hold the same state as the suspect during this time in order to allow for different interpretations of right and wrong.

And whoever explodes first is the guilty one.

It may seem like "Wild West" law enforcement, but it did work after all.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2013-01-21 23:33:47 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
The game mechanic should be changed, to either:

a. A player with a suspect flag can't dock in a high sec station.
b. Anyone who assists the suspect immediately gains their own suspect flag.

Though both changes would still leave loopholes, I think b. is a better choice.

I would go as far with b) as to say that anyone who interacts with the suspect becomes suspect.

Being suspect does not equal guilt. The guilt always needs to be determined, either by a judge or a jury, and in this case the players.

The players can then enforce their own laws and the enforcing players should not get any form of protection but hold the same state as the suspect during this time in order to allow for different interpretations of right and wrong.

And whoever explodes first is the guilty one.

It may seem like "Wild West" law enforcement, but it did work after all.


Actually the wild west was an extremely violent and bloody time period, so it didnt work all it did was give motivation to come up with a better system...

Anyways the real point i intended to make is this naming the flag "Suspect" is kinda faulty you *Know* they did something due to the fact that they have this flag instead i believe it should be renamed something along the lines of misdemeanor, minor criminal, or etc. anyways its just kinda wierd that "oh this guy is a suspect even though we have proof he committed a crime"

just my .02 isk though

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#49 - 2013-01-21 23:39:52 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

The crimewatch system is not designed to help or hinder the "bad guys". The greatness of the system is that it is completely neutral. Your actions have consequences and that's it. Now, your so called "bad guys" have learned to use the system to con the unwary but it is NOT the system's fault that you didn't learn the system as they did.

well.
"bad guys" have learned it and now they bait n00bs.
"good guys" have learned it and now they ignore "bad guys" with suspect flag.

Result: suspects outside of a station, no one aggroes (except occasional guests ans n00bs) and comments about "balls" in local.

System works as intended? Cool


In my eyes it kinda does. In a sense that I don't mind it. There has always been some smacktalk in local, players are still free to engage them with a larger force with whatever vindication they have in mind. Every major city has it's share of bums and criminals, and the occasional nonsense-yelling zealot. It comes to no surprise we find ghetto people showing their bling in Hek. So yeah, this might very well have been the intention all along Twisted
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#50 - 2013-01-21 23:44:08 UTC
It's astonishing just how man people don't understand crime watch.The patch notes alone are enough to understand completely how the system works.

Yes, some of us occasionally hang out on the undock of some station or another to see if anyone is foolish enough to start a fight. We also warp into mission spaces with the tag on, or go suspect out there. We steal from mining ops to get the tag. Basically we like to roam around being belligerent and seeing who will take a shot at us. We do it for loot, laughs, fights, or just to pass the time while waiting on something else.

The funny thing about the suspect flag is that it is COMPLETELY an opt-in PVP experience. It's exactly what carebears have cried for for years. Don't want to fight? Don't. Go about your merry way. It's not our fault trigger-happy do-gooders get their ships blown up and don't understand why.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#51 - 2013-01-23 02:33:51 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Except you can still get snagged on the other side of the gate if the attacker is smart.

He's just a fool that thinks station tag is cool and that he is actually accomplishing something other than looking pathetic.

Pity him. Smile


I suppose using the Uedama suicide ganker tactics might be interesting (Fleet Stabbers bumping off station/gate, followed by Talos/Tornado/Catalysts), but would require some planning and effort.

And as you said, the guy is just really sad, and not really worthy of my time.
Still, I think it would be far more interesting if you could not dock in high sec with a suspect flag.

Alpha fleet with passive targeters. No warning, he just explodes. There are groups doing this.



hahahaha! yessss... and I love it.. no time for logi reps.. just suddenly... "Hey, what the heck happened to my ship? FOUL FOUL! I'M GONNA PETITION!" hehehe...

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Daniel Whateley
#52 - 2013-01-25 04:21:38 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
The more comments I read, he more I am convinced that the suspect flag mechanic is indeed flawed.

The game mechanic should be changed, to either:

a. A player with a suspect flag can't dock in a high sec station.
b. Anyone who assists the suspect immediately gains their own suspect flag.

Though both changes would still leave loopholes, I think b. is a better choice.

I strongly doubt that a bunch of logi's would undock knowing they will be targets also.
The potential of an organized vigilante group waiting for them outside of the station grows exponentially if there is a target rich environment outside a station.
Suddenly, a vigilante group with a few Rooks can nullify those logi's, and it is lights out for the original target.

And if they dock back up, well then, the issue of suspects parked outside a station goes away since there are no suspect flags outside.


The b option is already in, you assist with any type of remote logi/sebos/tracking you have to have your security setting at partial to even assist and you gain a suspect timer, and if logi's undock you wont hit them anyway not with their afterburners with a 45 sig, even if you added a logistics docking penalty they'd stay alive long enough to dock again anyway, oh and i know the guy who plays that undock game too, he undocked in a mach and went 20km up, if i had a better ship at the time in station like a talos or something i would of attempted to kill him while we both had limited engagement.
Daniel Whateley
#53 - 2013-01-25 04:23:36 UTC
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Except you can still get snagged on the other side of the gate if the attacker is smart.

He's just a fool that thinks station tag is cool and that he is actually accomplishing something other than looking pathetic.

Pity him. Smile


I suppose using the Uedama suicide ganker tactics might be interesting (Fleet Stabbers bumping off station/gate, followed by Talos/Tornado/Catalysts), but would require some planning and effort.

And as you said, the guy is just really sad, and not really worthy of my time.
Still, I think it would be far more interesting if you could not dock in high sec with a suspect flag.

Alpha fleet with passive targeters. No warning, he just explodes. There are groups doing this.



hahahaha! yessss... and I love it.. no time for logi reps.. just suddenly... "Hey, what the heck happened to my ship? FOUL FOUL! I'M GONNA PETITION!" hehehe...


Btw i see you lol.
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