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[Retribution 1.1] Black Ops Little Things - now with Covert Cyno update

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Wey'oun
#61 - 2013-01-19 00:19:28 UTC
Is there no chance of rolling out this Blackops patch BEFORE the feb patch. i want it naooooo :(

PS: Awesome changes! bout time! :D
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#62 - 2013-01-19 00:21:26 UTC
I knew there was a God of Iceland, he is shinning down on the mothballed fleet of Widows and Sin's and will continue into the future.

Thank you CCP

And a pox on the forum jockeys out there that can only criticize and spread discord.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
GeoffWICE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-01-19 00:25:32 UTC
Devedse wrote:
Why has no one ever thought about the fact to make black ops be able to jump to high sec??? It would instantly give them a huge "cool feature".

I bet some mission runners wanna pimp out some black ops to be able to instantly jump to their mission sites. They can also be used for backup when wartargets are station hugging (bait them with only 1 ship there, jump in the black ops).

There's loads more things to think about they could do in high sec. It would give them a real unique role in EvE.

What about it guys?


It has been thought about before.
the CSM even voted on it but nothing happened.

there were even some discussions with ccp
there were some worries about being able to transport between the trade hubs to easily though that was counted by the fact it would take multiple jumps and fuel making it cost prohibitive anyway.

since the range changes this seams even more unlikely now since there would be fewer jumps and less fuel required
the only other option i can think of where they would allow this is if any one in high sec interacting with cov cyno/jump bridge in any way was flagged as suspect
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-01-19 00:46:50 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
None of this will be a surprise to you avid minute-readers, but for everyone else here's what we have planned:

  • Increase the base jump range of all Black Ops ships to 3.5 light years (equal to that of Titans)
  • Reduce the mass multipler used for Covert Jump Portal fuel costs from 0.00000018 to 0.000000135 (Reduces the fuel cost of covert bridges by 25%)
  • Increase the fuel bay on all Black Ops to 1250m3 (25% increase)


These changes will not be in the current Sisi build but should be in the build after that so you can start playing with them. We're aiming to have the changes out in Retribution 1.1 on February 12th.

Let us know what you think of the proposed changes in this thread.

:Edit: Also apparently Two Step is getting close to me in likes so you should all like this post. Takk. :Edit:
I think that...

This is a very bad idea, and for multiple reasons.

You're buffing some ships because "nobody uses them".
What's the point ? What's the goal ?

1) The hotdrop mechanisms need to be nerfed, not to be accessible to any peasant (hem). At the moment, it is limited to some BlOps pilots (which are few, and have strong limitations like the range problem you're trying to resolve) and the titan pilots, which dedicated training (2 years), isks (75B) and money (founding the account) to allow them to hotdrop.
I don't want to see the PVP in EVE restricted to hotdrops. I want to see fleets, I want to see roams. Ambushed and bombed while moving. Delayed by bubbles.
And what is hotdropping atm ? The planning ? Someone owning a bridging ship that will never be at risk, a few scouts with cynos (most of the time, only one) and 10 to 250 guys next to the bridging ship, fapping over furry **** or waiting for a jabber ping. Only the scout is doing some effort. Nobody else.
The action itself ? "Drop on them, we're 5x their number, otherwise we wouldnt try it, anyway they won't fight back". Fascinating.

2) The short range of the BlOp bridge was a good thing. If you wanted to hotdropped someone, you had to move in their vicinity. You're almost doubling that range. From a tactical tool, it's becoming a strategic weapon. You can cover a whole region. So far for the "delicate behind-the-enemy-lines ships"... No more dedicated for a particular target. A lot harder to be spotted since the titan bridge range is roughly ~11 jumps, where a current BlOp must hide withing ~5 jumps of its target.

3) You're increasing the fuel bay, because bridging more people at once is better, right ? Sorry but it may be time to stop making ships that are scaling linearly. Yes, the so-called "blob". A BlOp can bridge a few recons and bombers ; it's fine. Do you think that bridging 20 recons with a single ship is a good idea ?

4) You're also reducing the fuel consumption. It helps bridging more people (see point 3) and reduces the hotdrop price. It should be the other way ! You have complete intel of the targeted fleet ; you're gonna ambushed them, for a mere million isks in fuel ? Hotdropping is already lacking some :effort: and risk, and you want to make it cheap(er).

5) The range bonus is a nice buff to the viators, cranes and co, basically making them like tiny jump freighters. Because EVE Online needs more easy logistics that don't even use gates and cannot be catch (unless the pilot is making major mistakes). When was the last time that a major 00 alliance had its supply lines significantly disrupted ?

6) Do you really thing that BlOps are under-used because of the range and some fuel problems ? Flash news : you're wrong. You need 2 years of training to pilot one. Their bridging role is done by titans, because instead of using a bomber/recon/cloaky T3 fleet (which has weaknesses), you can use cheaper and more efficient ships like BCs. Will this patch change anything about that ? No. Maybe you should check again the skill requirements to fly one. Maybe you should give them a bonus that makes them something else than a POS module. Example : BlOps have a 30s delay before being listed in the local channel. It would make them excellent for highsec, lowsec and 00 areas. Or some kind of "bubble", allowing people to catch ratting nyxes in a cyno jammed system.

7) Why are you buffing the hotdrop part ? Hey, I can answer that for you : because catching people is becoming harder and harder, thanks to the intel channels, the local and the dscan. You should work on that.




I am disappointed. BlOps need some love, but not on the bridge part. And I would like to play EVE Online : roaming behind the enemy lines, not Cyno Online : fapping while waiting inside a forcefield. Thanks.


Show us on the dolly where the evil hotdrop touched you...

Seriously, STFU. What in the world makes you think that hotdrops should be limited to only titan pilots. Hate to inform you that blackops, while theoretically more prevalent than titans are, are currently scarcer because they are utterly useless. I say this as a current redeemer pilot - I would never ever take my blackops ship somewhere that it might possibly ever see combat. Why? Because there is nothing about it that makes it remotely useful in a combat situation over bringing a bomber, and the huge pricetag attached just make it a gankers wet dream.

Yes, they may eventually re-do blackops. But this will at least make the ship more than a hanger toy in the meintime. And we have already seen CCP's track record on local and intel - nothing is going to bring back your "glory days" of roaming about and having good fights. And if you are actually going to be reasonable with yourself and your ****** ass memory, you will realize that those glory days never really existed, and for as long as eve has been running there has always been a "blob" that ruins everything.

-Arazel
Dirk Morbho
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-01-19 01:00:30 UTC
Black Ops Buffs ?!?!?


HELL YES!


Now un-nerf mah hurricanes Big smile please
Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
#66 - 2013-01-19 01:17:38 UTC
OH, YEAH! Cool
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#67 - 2013-01-19 02:47:49 UTC
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Show us on the dolly where the evil hotdrop touched you...
CCP Fozzie is looking for feedbacks, not goon mèmes. Try to be constructive.

Arazel Chainfire wrote:
I say this as a current redeemer pilot - I would never ever take my blackops ship somewhere that it might possibly ever see combat. Why? Because there is nothing about it that makes it remotely useful in a combat situation over bringing a bomber, and the huge pricetag attached just make it a gankers wet dream.
BlOps aren't that expensive -800m, when an abaddon should cost about 250m-. The redeemer is one of the 2 lazer BS in the game having a tracking bonus (the other is the nightmare, which is a bit more expensive), making him a viable BS in any heavy armor fleet (you can even forget about the bridge and the cloak). It's not ~great~, but it's not that bad.

Arazel Chainfire wrote:
But this will at least make the ship more than a hanger toy in the meintime.
Yes, of course, because a PVP ship that will never see the battlefield (unless it's an AT) is so much better.
Instead of having a badly-made buff, I would prefer that CCP Fozzie would take time to think the real role of the BlOps and how the ship bonii should support that role. Becoming an un-anchored jump bridge is not a proper role for a ship.

Arazel Chainfire wrote:
And if you are actually going to be reasonable with yourself and your ****** ass memory, you will realize that those glory days never really existed
I started playing 2y ago, and in these "glory" days I could find a lot more gangs in lowsec and 00 NPC. Call me nostalgic if you want, but POS-hugging is not challenging nor even fun (but it's competitive).

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
fukier
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-01-19 04:00:53 UTC
i dont think blops need covert ops cloak...

i would prefer some cool bonus like can use mjd while cloaked and reduction in time to reactive mjd... 
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-01-19 04:13:36 UTC
I fear giving BO a covert cloak will make it over the top. Also is there a way to decease jump fuel usage even more and bridge fuel more and not increase the fuel bay. I just don't want to see them head towards jump drive fuel transport.
Donges And Buttes
Broski Enterprises
#70 - 2013-01-19 06:13:52 UTC
thank you based god
Crazey Monkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-01-19 07:08:17 UTC
I would also like to thank the gods who gave us this. I've also noticed that all the hate in this thread comes from people who have never flown these majestic ships into battle.
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2013-01-19 07:40:49 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
None of this will be a surprise to you avid minute-readers, but for everyone else here's what we have planned:

  • Increase the base jump range of all Black Ops ships to 3.5 light years (equal to that of Titans)
  • Reduce the mass multipler used for Covert Jump Portal fuel costs from 0.00000018 to 0.000000135 (Reduces the fuel cost of covert bridges by 25%)
  • Increase the fuel bay on all Black Ops to 1250m3 (25% increase)

I don't know what they're paying you, Fozzie, but it clearly isn't enough Big smile
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2013-01-19 08:36:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The 99% CPU reductions as a method of restricting what ships a module can be fitted to is a old and poor practice that has a number of problems, from confusing the process of fitting ships, to allowing weird edge cases (Test server Covops Avatar is one example). They also require those very hard to explain bonuses (97.5-100% reduction to cloak cpu per level? Virtually nobody understands that the first time they read it). You'll notice that all the newer modules that are restricted to certain shop types avoid the CPU method.

The good news is that I spent a good chunk of this week reauthoring the way all those legacy modules get restricted, and that should open up some very nice doors.


First off - thanks for clearing up the '99% issue'. Now all of us in the 1% can rest easier knowing that no calculators are needed to figure out our usages.

Second - Does your change also allow for the case Trebor was asking about where covert cynos can be fitted to T3s with the correct sub? Or is there still a technical limitation to moving this attribute from the ship attributes to the subsytems?

Also, thanks for the little BO change. This will be a nice buff to help BO users out for the time being, and I'm looking forward to whenever you get around to the comprehensive overhaul of the ships. Between the ship changes in place, and the upcoming CS changes, you guys on the balance team are bringing a massive amount of life back into this game.
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#74 - 2013-01-19 09:39:46 UTC
Guess we should say thank you for bringing BO to the level they should have been introduced the first time. Now work on EWAR, DPS and resists.

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2013-01-19 11:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
Nice changes Fozzie, I will be very happy about this. I read the minutes as they're getting a 50% increase in endurance (25% increase in fuel bay, 25% reduction in jump fuel costs).

175% increase in jump range is bloody great, but I still think they could use a further fuel use reduction for both bridging and jumping.

I like that idea of the delayed local.

Give them the tank and dps of a t1 BS and the ability to fit everything without loads of dead space and I think you'll be on a winner, that or some racial ewar bonuses, like point range on the domi, web range on the panther, neut amount on the redeemer.

I mainly use a bomber for blops cyno'ing due to the lack of a targeting delay post de-cloak, but I swear when t3's came out you could use the covert cyno on them, what changed that stuffed that up?

Cov ops cloak is simply not needed and I definitely wouldn't want to have that over something like more dps since tech 3's do dps covert thing fine...Though I wouldn't say no to cov ops cloak as well as more dps and tank...

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Janna Windforce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-01-19 11:50:33 UTC
fukier wrote:
i dont think blops need covert ops cloak...

i would prefer some cool bonus like can use mjd while cloaked and reduction in time to reactive mjd...


Remember cloak+MWD trick? Well cloak+MJD is the same... with extra twist that you will land cloaked 100km away.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#77 - 2013-01-19 13:07:31 UTC
The CovOps hotdrop is cool tbh
The only thing uncool to get dropped on you are caps/super caps and huge conventional fleets by a Titan.
This is because even slightly prepared fleets have a chance at fighting back against recons and bombers if the numbers aren't too drastic.

The whole hotdrop thing however has a very demoralizing effect on Eve and perhaps portals and cynos should all have a limited mass pr 15 seconds allowed...
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Fraternity.
#78 - 2013-01-19 13:31:53 UTC
Janna Windforce wrote:
fukier wrote:
i dont think blops need covert ops cloak...

i would prefer some cool bonus like can use mjd while cloaked and reduction in time to reactive mjd...


Remember cloak+MWD trick? Well cloak+MJD is the same... with extra twist that you will land cloaked 100km away.


Does MJD work even if you're a bit slow on cloaking up again and get yourself targeted? If so then... MY GOD...
Janna Windforce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-01-19 13:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Janna Windforce
Heimdallofasgard wrote:
Janna Windforce wrote:
fukier wrote:
i dont think blops need covert ops cloak...

i would prefer some cool bonus like can use mjd while cloaked and reduction in time to reactive mjd...


Remember cloak+MWD trick? Well cloak+MJD is the same... with extra twist that you will land cloaked 100km away.


Does MJD work even if you're a bit slow on cloaking up again and get yourself targeted? If so then... MY GOD...


MJD has nothing to do with you being targeted, only way to stop you is scram, bubbles won't stop you, disruptors won't stop you, you can't warpstab your MJD.
Deadline for cloaking is when you start being yellowboxed, so you can safely start spooling MJD, wail at them and when they decide to come for you, cloak and wooosh, Vic Lacuna style.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#80 - 2013-01-19 15:23:57 UTC
They need T2 resists before black ops become usefull. I'd like to see two black ops for each race, one which can use covt jump portal and the other one a dps combat ship.

Both need the ability to fit cov ops cloaks.