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Dread blapping

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TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#221 - 2013-01-27 21:30:28 UTC
gnome proper wrote:
Anyone that has a slight clue about PVP will see that Moros is overpowered in the role it is being used in w-space - blapping subcaps. Any argument against that simple fact is a lie.

A dreadnought should never be able to hit a cruiser or frigate, it's just silly now.


Except you know maybe when the cruiser is brought to an absolute standstill with lots of webs, and it's signature exploded with painters.

Honestly, dreads hitting them in that situation is fine. Your issue is that you either didn't (or couldn't, possibly because of mass limits) take out the support fleet that made it possible for the dread to hit the t3s first
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#222 - 2013-01-27 21:31:49 UTC
Two step wrote:
QT McWhiskers wrote:
http://kb.hardknocksinc.net/index.php/kill_detail/5172/
http://kb.hardknocksinc.net/index.php/kill_detail/5174/

In this fight, only one t3 died to dread blapping. Everyone else got maybe 1 good hit in and we couldnt hit it again. This was with at least 6 webs and 3 TPs on each target.

However 1 moros was able to almost kill 2 revs and an archon. I agree that the moros is a little OP. However being to track small ships... not so much.


Again, just because you are bad at dread blapping doesn't mean it isn't a problem (based on the fit of your lost rev, you guys aren't fit properly - 2 tracking mods, no drop in cargo). Come back when you guys learn to do it properly.


"if you disagree with my complaints you're bad at eve"

nice argumentative skills bro
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#223 - 2013-01-28 02:15:25 UTC
gnome proper wrote:


A dreadnought should never be able to hit a cruiser or frigate, it's just silly now.


But of course you're totally fine with the cruiser or frigate being able to damage and or kill the dreadnaught.

Sounds legit.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#224 - 2013-01-28 14:00:25 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:

That's what people with clue use... 90% webs, equivalent of 4 unbonused webs. It's not the lokis or the painters that make it easy, it's these. The vast majority of people complaining about dread blapping seem to be clueless on how it's really being done effectively.


Then the problem isn't dread blapping, the problem is 90% webs.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2013-01-28 14:32:10 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:

That's what people with clue use... 90% webs, equivalent of 4 unbonused webs. It's not the lokis or the painters that make it easy, it's these. The vast majority of people complaining about dread blapping seem to be clueless on how it's really being done effectively.


Then the problem isn't dread blapping, the problem is 90% webs.


Nah, there really isn't a problem at all. The dread can not do any blapping on its own, people just need to realize that and neutralize the threats accordingly. The dreads main purpose in big balls to the walls fights is still to take out the enemy capitals and possible Bhaalgorns and other high risk battleships such as heavy jammers and such. The subcap fleets purpose is still going to be in handling the rest and providing the said support for those capitals. Once the capitals are taken care of, the dread simply doesn't have to sit idle twiddling thumbs, but instead with proper good support it can start helping the subcaps. What exactly is wrong with that? Seriously. If you couldn't take out the subcaps that help that moros, what makes you think you were in any position to win that fight anyway?

In short, it's a case of learn to play, not nerf it to hell.
Psihius
Perkone
Caldari State
#226 - 2013-01-28 15:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Psihius
Two step wrote:
Sorry, I got a little busy, and didn't get back to this thread until now. I do think a large part of the problem is the tracking on the Moros, and perhaps with that fixed blapping wouldn't be as big of an issue.

I would agree on this. Moros tracking is FAR better. I can compare only to Revelation, because I pilot one. Moros'es start to make hits on targets 2-3 salvos earlier than my Revelation does (I compare on Sleeper Guardian BS webbed with 2 webs slowing from 150 m/sec to 25-30 m/sec). And I use one more tracking enhanser than Moros guys. I also use traking boosters and even combined with thouse I can barelly keep up with moroses. And ofcourse the damage difference is huge. Well, blasters always where the kings of damage and it's fine.
What actually botheres me are the optimal values for the blaster XL Antimater charges.
Usually blasters have tons of damage and short optimal (and usually fallof is not much either). Well, I'm looking at my Dual Giga Pulse Lasers with Multifrequency XL crystals and Ion Siege Blaser with Antimater XL charge. The optimal + fallof numbers kind'a confuse me (these are raw gun + charge numbers without any aditional modules or implants):
Revelation: 23 + 13
Moros: 19 + 19

I know, with the moros blasters there is the issue of it being able to hit Large POS Towers, but the numbers mean that Revelation just cannot warp at range and utilize the ability to shoot at FAR grater optimal than blasters like it is in sub-cap ship classes to receive less damage at range. Close range XL weapon ranges are too close to each other (at least in case of Blasters and Lasers, I wount speak for missiles and matar close range weapons). And the difference of around 30% in damage coupled with the tracking, optimal and fallof numbers could be the issue. You should know yourself that Moros is not just a dread of choise, it is the only effective thing out there in the wild for WH in most cases.

Just my 2 cents. Maybe worth the reading, maybe not.

P.S. I pilot a Revelation because when I was choosing witch dread to train it was like 2 weeks away at decent skills and Moros was almost 6 months away. Now I tease myself with the thought that i'm not like everybody else :D
P.S.S. I also kind'a like the Revelation as a ship and it's ability to instantly change the crystals. As a bonus thouse crystals last for months of active use, I used only 6 crystals in half a year at this point :)
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2013-01-28 16:26:31 UTC
Maybe we just need a new “anti-dread” ship designed specifically for wormhole space. A T3 BS with low mass and the ability to fit extra large guns perhaps...

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2013-01-28 16:46:26 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Maybe we just need a new “anti-dread” ship designed specifically for wormhole space. A T3 BS with low mass and the ability to fit extra large guns perhaps...


It's called neut legion or ecm tengu. Either you neut the dread itself, or jam/neut the webs, both accomplish the same thing.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2013-01-28 16:51:34 UTC
You're not telling me anything i don't already know.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2013-01-28 17:09:05 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
You're not telling me anything i don't already know.


If you already know this, why are you asking for new ways to accomplish the same then?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2013-01-28 17:19:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Because people disagree that that is a viable tactic in all cases. Please read more than the last few pages.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#232 - 2013-01-28 17:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Nucleus
People keep saying that the Moros needs a tracking nerf, but does that even matter when your target is essentially painted to the size of a battleship and NOT moving due to webs?

*Keep in mind I do not fly dreads. *

No trolling please
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#233 - 2013-01-28 18:26:59 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
People keep saying that the Moros needs a tracking nerf, but does that even matter when your target is essentially painted to the size of a battleship and NOT moving due to webs?

*Keep in mind I do not fly dreads. *


Its a good point - I was thinking earlier maybe the solution was a ship with a role bonus like the hic that could tracking disrupt sieged dreads that are otherwise immune to ewar - but then remembered the tracking formula doesn't work like that when somethings painted and hardly moving. (This would have resulted in not nerfing a dreads main role but reducing its impact on sub-caps).

TBH tho I've never really found blap dreads an issue except in isolated circumstances.
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#234 - 2013-01-28 18:36:59 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Bane Nucleus wrote:
People keep saying that the Moros needs a tracking nerf, but does that even matter when your target is essentially painted to the size of a battleship and NOT moving due to webs?

*Keep in mind I do not fly dreads. *


Its a good point - I was thinking earlier maybe the solution was a ship with a role bonus like the hic that could tracking disrupt sieged dreads that are otherwise immune to ewar - but then remembered the tracking formula doesn't work like that when somethings painted and hardly moving. (This would have resulted in not nerfing a dreads main role but reducing its impact on sub-caps).

TBH tho I've never really found blap dreads an issue except in isolated circumstances.



A dread in siege is pretty damn vulnerable and needs a pretty costly amount of support to function.

Usually when we find capsdoing sites we just fit out a dread tanked for their damage types and counter it.

Now if the dreads have ~dozen support with tons of webs, painters and other complimentary e-war, I was probably in over my head anyway.
Rhavas
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#235 - 2013-01-28 18:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhavas
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
If you couldn't take out the subcaps that help that moros, what makes you think you were in any position to win that fight anyway?

In short, it's a case of learn to play, not nerf it to hell.


QFT.

If you must meddle, meddle with the Revelation, Naglfar & Phoenix to make them more comparable to the Moros. I suspect that CCP Fozzie will get to this in due time, and based on this thread I think he has more important fish to fry (battleships, HACs, etc.) sooner.

Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
Gary Bell
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#236 - 2013-01-28 18:51:08 UTC
And this is where the "tower" of win comes in and why you should always have some ****** phoenix..

Alright we fit to tank em.. seige green... Dammit here comes the nag
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#237 - 2013-01-28 20:29:13 UTC
Gary Bell wrote:
And this is where the "tower" of win comes in and why you should always have some ****** phoenix..

Alright we fit to tank em.. seige green... Dammit here comes the nag



I'll happily watch a nefarious plan of mine come undone just to see a Nag in person ;)

It hasn't happened yet.
Go2
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2013-01-28 22:47:30 UTC
Two step wrote:
20K is not spread out. You said you had ammo with a 60K optimal, perhaps you ought to look at things when you are 60K out.

Omen's post up above is spot on. Those of us that either field dread fleets or run into them often think this is a problem. How large of a problem is open to some debate, which I am happy to have with folks. If CCP decided to solve the problem, there would also be a chance for people to discuss the potential fix.


@Two Step - Anything you can do on this regard would be great. I'm in agreement with everyone else on the issue of the Moros power level.

Imagine how it feels to be a Phoenix pilot in WH space (cry)
Go2
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#239 - 2013-01-28 22:54:59 UTC
Rhavas wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Have to agree with Gunslinger. It's not about the dreads or the archons, it's about being able to counter the other fleet. Take out their support for the capitals, be it with ECM, neuts, damps or sheer dps and you'll effectively take out the dreads as well. No amount of nerfs will change this one bit, all you accomplish with those is that people might stop flying the nerfed boats entirely and move on to the next best thing.

I could do what many others have done and start linking battlereports of how an inferior number of capitals has beaten the superior one with nothing but smart tactics and the right support cast, but it'd be just as pointless as this whole argument. There's nothing wrong with dreads or the moros overall, all that needs to be done is bring the nid and the phoenix into line with the others. Moros and Rev are balanced pretty much like they should be, one being the uber dps monster and the other being the uber tank monster. Trying to force them to be in the same mold would just be silly.


This. Make the Naglfar worthwhile, tweak the Rev and call it a day on this whole thread.


Aren't you forgetting the Phoenix ?
GunnersMate07
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2013-01-29 01:45:57 UTC  |  Edited by: GunnersMate07
Bane Nucleus wrote:
People keep saying that the Moros needs a tracking nerf, but does that even matter when your target is essentially painted to the size of a battleship and NOT moving due to webs?

*Keep in mind I do not fly dreads. *


Well when it comes to the moros specifically, it has soooo much better tracking than a rev (not to mention almost 50% more dps) that it will hit subcaps with not a lot of support that a rev has no chance of hitting.

When you do see subcaps getting blapped by dreads, the majority of the time its a moros doing the deed.

I personally dont think dread blapping is an issue, but the moros is clearly out of line with the other 3 dreads. Theres a reason pretty much every high class wspace fleet fields mostly moros' (morosi?), and rarely revs.


To put the numbers in perspective, a moros with 3 fed navy tc's, strong drop, and 5% implant will get .02063 tracking. Thats better than typical arty nados/tempests. A revelation with the same setup (not even sure if you put 3 tc's on a rev tbh), gets 0.01544 tracking. Its a world of difference without taking into account the massive damage difference between the two as well.