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The Future of Wardecs

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Singular Snowflake
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-01-17 08:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Singular Snowflake
CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.


I have subscribed to EVE with the belief that the above statement has always been one of the core values of our beloved game. It is the one thing that makes this MMO different from all the other "Hello Kitty Online" games out there.

Today I was shocked to find one of CCP's own employees making the following statement in the recent CSM meeting minutes (page 68):

CCP Solomon wrote:
Should it [wardecs] be limited to each party's ability to engage and fight, though? I mean that's what we're trying to zero in on: that consensual, high-sec engagement where its mutual, and both sides have the ability to participate and cause losses and cause damage, that's the kind of thing we want to be moving towards and encouraging.

CCP Solomon wrote:
I'm just stimulating conversation here. If we're going to balance the system, you need to understand what the primary goal is that you're trying to satisfy. And is that you want mutual high-sec engagements, or do I want a situation where one side is the complete aggressor, where the strong preys on the weak, and [the] weak [huddle in stations].


Is this really CCP's official stance? Is making all high-sec engagements mutual really CCP's primary goal?

In my eyes the very idea of forcing wardecs to be consensual and "honourable" duels is an abomination against the very idea of EVE. It is not simply a change within the game, it is changing the game itself.

Please discuss your opinions about CCP Solomon's radical new ideas about EVE in this thread, but lets keep the trolling to the minimum.

Edit: Here is a really good writeup on the positions of different CSM and CCP members about the issue. Remember the names of these pro-hellokitty CSM members in the upcoming election.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-01-17 08:06:21 UTC
They want hisec wars to be like a duel request in WOW.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-01-17 08:11:04 UTC
I am deeply saddened by this, but not at all surprised.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Wescro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-01-17 08:12:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Wescro
I mean at this rate why even have wardecs. Let's just transition to a World of Warcraft style Arena Mode where you are automatically match-made with EQUAL and FAIR(tm) opponents. Or let's just take guns out all together and make them slingshots that fire ponies instead of antimatter.

*EDIT* This kind of mandate on equality will mean that skilled PvPers won't be able to benefit of their skills and poor PvPers will not be punished for their lack of skill. In other words, if you try to become better at PvP to obtain an edge over other players, CCP will knock you down and make sure you can't use that advantage. Your effort is useless, you should just be like the players who don't try to play better and don't get punished for it. How this is a good thing for EVE is something CCP Solomon will have to explain to us.

Isn't the very idea of an MMO the fact that you should be able to interact with and AFFECT other people? If CCP wants to severely limit the ways in which people interact to favor specific kinds of engagements, it will be a detriment to the player experience. It certainly won't be the wild wild west in space that drew me and countless other players to EVE.

http://crossingzebras.com/2013/02/17/csm8ripardteg/
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-01-17 08:17:32 UTC
You miss the point, I think. I may be wrong

I read that as as "people who dont want to fight wont, so what's the actual point?"

I mean, setting aside the possibility of economic warfare because it's a) thin and b) only going to be a useful tactic against a large corp who are liable to fight back anyway.


If as massively outclassed corp is decced, what invariably happens is that they don't undock/drop to NPC corp. That's hardly spurring engagement or content, really. So a bunch of people trade in stations or play other stuff? Not exactly the stuff of dreams for either party tbh.

Yes, yes, eve is hard™, htfu etc, etc, ad-infinitum, however when people aren't undocking and/or simply doing something else you'll have a hard time convincing me that is healthy for the overall game long term.

Even if wardecs did suddenly require mutuality, it's not like non-consensual PvP is 'dead', it never will be until weapons are disabled Blink
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-01-17 08:21:46 UTC
This is a trend that has been going on for some time. In order to be a belligerent undesirable in highsec you've always needed to jump through some hoops, but they keep adding hoops and they keep getting smaller and smaller.

I mean, let's take can flipping as an example. Apparently having an entire corp able to shoot you wasn't enough? It has to be the entirety of eve? Or what about the nerfs to the Orca that have made it consistently less and less useful to those living the Suddenly Ninjas lifestyle? And what have we ever gotten in return? I could write entire books about the ways in which CCP has taken a look at some of the incredible people doing fantastic work in highsec and decided that they need to be weighed down so they can't jump as high or run as fast.

I've had someone tell me I should be counting Dec Shield getting put out of business as a buff to my people. Getting something that was taken from you returned after many months is not a buff.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Singular Snowflake
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-01-17 08:25:20 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You miss the point, I think. I may be wrong

I read that as as "people who dont want to fight wont, so what's the actual point?"

I mean, setting aside the possibility of economic warfare because it's a) thin and b) only going to be a useful tactic against a large corp who are liable to fight back anyway.

If as massively outclassed corp is decced, what invariably happens is that they don't undock/drop to NPC corp. That's hardly spurring engagement or content, really. So a bunch of people trade in stations or play other stuff? Not exactly the stuff of dreams for either party tbh.

Well, for example, forcing your rival mining corp to dock up and stay inside while your corp grows fat in the fields is in my opinion a useful tactic. This is just one example. There are issues with old players being in NPC corps, but that discussion should be had in some other thread.
Random Woman
Very Professional Corporation
#8 - 2013-01-17 08:36:36 UTC
Highsec wars always sucked, and always will be. If someone does not want to fight they wont.

Right now highsec wars are 33% ganking of ppl that dont know what those wars mean, 33% of Jita 4-4 camping and 33% station games. All those things have nothing to do with fighting. Might aswell let it die completly and fallback to suicide ganking.

I mean almost all of those "hardcore" (heard that word like 4000 times through that one keynote, most annoying speech ever) changes are taken back already, there is no commitment in wardeccing.

Why , because ppl didnt want to fight and CCP broke their broken wardec mechanic even more. Acctually giving HighSec Elite pvp players soemthign to shoot at, but i guess its not fun if someone shoots back.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-01-17 08:41:47 UTC
Singular Snowflake wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You miss the point, I think. I may be wrong

I read that as as "people who dont want to fight wont, so what's the actual point?"

I mean, setting aside the possibility of economic warfare because it's a) thin and b) only going to be a useful tactic against a large corp who are liable to fight back anyway.

If as massively outclassed corp is decced, what invariably happens is that they don't undock/drop to NPC corp. That's hardly spurring engagement or content, really. So a bunch of people trade in stations or play other stuff? Not exactly the stuff of dreams for either party tbh.

Well, for example, forcing your rival mining corp to dock up and stay inside while your corp grows fat in the fields is in my opinion a useful tactic. This is just one example. There are issues with old players being in NPC corps, but that discussion should be had in some other thread.



Yes, there are edge cases which I nodded towards, however in the main it just doesnt happen like you would hope.

Besides, its's been demonstrated that the non aggressive bumping of miners >>>> wardecs Blink Joking aside though...The idea and concept of wardecs is great, but I guess he's questioning if the reality matches that vision.

Again, I may be wrong, it was simply my reading of it. I dont think it's something that will happen.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#10 - 2013-01-17 09:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Players already have a mechanic to avoid war, that safety comes at a price, a fixed tax rate and some minor compromises in what they can and cannot do in Eve, it's called an NPC corp. If they leave that very large safety net then they should be subject to the chances of warfare, which include explosions and the loss of assets.

Outside of NPC corps, Eve is full of sharks, some of them are bigger and more aggressive than others and people should just "deal with it". Mercs are there to provide a solution for those that don't want to fight, if people are in a player corp that gets wardecced and don't want to fight they are free to hire people that do want to fight and are willing to do it for a fee.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-01-17 09:19:09 UTC
FIRE THAT MOFO!!!!!!!!!

RIOTS IN JITA TRUE SUBSCRIBERS OF EVE ONLINE. THIS MUST NOT BE TOLERATED!!!!!!!
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#12 - 2013-01-17 09:26:11 UTC
if you dont want painful combat forced upon you no matter where you are, you are playing the wrong game

however, i would support a seperate server with no PVP so the absolute carebears can see how boring this game would be without it

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-01-17 09:30:22 UTC
Quote:
SoniClover: And it seems that some are clamoring a lot for the game system to protect them. And we're trying to minimize that as much as possible. EVE is never going to give you complete game system security. And we're never going to go that route.


But I can understand why CCP wants to change highsec wars. If it is true that in 90% of the highsec wars no fighting takes place, then it is even worse than I thought.

Just take a look at an eve newbie, I'll call him Joe Pod.

In week one, Joe is overwhelmed by the complexity of the game, he runs most of the tutorial missions, acquires several ships and many skillbooks. Motivation: 100%

Week two, Joe has finished the tutorials and feels a little lost in eve. After all, he is most likely used to MMOs that take you by the hand and exactly tell you what to do. As usual for a newbie, he will most likely decide to do some mining to earn money for better ships to run missions or do pvp later. Motivation: 80%

Week three, our solo mining Joe Pod is approached by a newbie indy corp. He thinks yeah, eve is about social interaction, I'll just make some new friends here and meet people who can help me with getting started in eve. Motivation: 100%

Week three and a half: Joe's new corp gets wardecced. For being an easy prey alone. They did not step on somebody's toes, they did not insult any other corp or alliance. Having bad killboard stats is reason enough to get wardecced and small newbie indy corps usually get wardecced a lot because of it. Joe is excited about his first war, Motivation: 100%

Still week three and a half: Maybe a single fight occurs where the aggressors curbstomp one or two of those clueless miners with dedicated pvp ships, off-grid boosting t3s and (luckily no longer) neutral logi. The CEO realizes that there is no way in hell to win this war and orders the corp to stay docked up until the wardec expires. Our highly motivated newbie Joe Pod is ordered to stop playing eve for a week and go play Skyrim or something like that. Motivation: 10%

Week four: in a rare moment of clarity, Joe Pod begins to ask himself why he should pay monthly fees to CCP for playing Skyrim. Most likely he will cancel his subscription and never come back to eve. Motivation: 0%

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#14 - 2013-01-17 09:37:30 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Quote:
SoniClover: And it seems that some are clamoring a lot for the game system to protect them. And we're trying to minimize that as much as possible. EVE is never going to give you complete game system security. And we're never going to go that route.


But I can understand why CCP wants to change highsec wars. If it is true that in 90% of the highsec wars no fighting takes place, then it is even worse than I thought.

Just take a look at an eve newbie, I'll call him Joe Pod.

In week one, Joe is overwhelmed by the complexity of the game, he runs most of the tutorial missions, acquires several ships and many skillbooks. Motivation: 100%

Week two, Joe has finished the tutorials and feels a little lost in eve. After all, he is most likely used to MMOs that take you by the hand and exactly tell you what to do. As usual for a newbie, he will most likely decide to do some mining to earn money for better ships to run missions or do pvp later. Motivation: 80%

Week three, our solo mining Joe Pod is approached by a newbie indy corp. He thinks yeah, eve is about social interaction, I'll just make some new friends here and meet people who can help me with getting started in eve. Motivation: 100%

Week three and a half: Joe's new corp gets wardecced. For being an easy prey alone. They did not step on somebody's toes, they did not insult any other corp or alliance. Having bad killboard stats is reason enough to get wardecced and small newbie indy corps usually get wardecced a lot because of it. Joe is excited about his first war, Motivation: 100%

Still week three and a half: Maybe a single fight occurs where the aggressors curbstomp one or two of those clueless miners with dedicated pvp ships, off-grid boosting t3s and (luckily no longer) neutral logi. The CEO realizes that there is no way in hell to win this war and orders the corp to stay docked up until the wardec expires. Our highly motivated newbie Joe Pod is ordered to stop playing eve for a week and go play Skyrim or something like that. Motivation: 10%

Week four: in a rare moment of clarity, Joe Pod begins to ask himself why he should pay monthly fees to CCP for playing Skyrim. Most likely he will cancel his subscription and never come back to eve. Motivation: 0%


Make new accounts immune to wardecs for a month after starting? rest of the corp would fight and they would only fight if they went into a battle firing? although that brings in the nightmare of starting accounts to circumvent it

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#15 - 2013-01-17 09:42:18 UTC
There is plenty of PVP to be had, the way I'm reading it is CCP is looking at nerfing grief fests dec's, I still flip cans on occasion but now get PVPeed on by anybody willing to give me a golden shower, hi sec PVP is there it just has a price tag otherwise there's low, 0.0, null & FW, & WH... so why up in arms over that purposed change.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-01-17 09:47:06 UTC
Zol Interbottom wrote:


Make new accounts immune to wardecs for a month after starting? rest of the corp would fight and they would only fight if they went into a battle firing? although that brings in the nightmare of starting accounts to circumvent it


True. But don't forget that we are talking about a newbie here.
Seasoned eve players are used to utilize alts in any way possible, but this is a concept quite unlike to any other MMO and something that especially newbies find difficult to adapt to.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#17 - 2013-01-17 09:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kainotomiu Ronuken
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You miss the point, I think. I may be wrong

I read that as as "people who dont want to fight wont, so what's the actual point?"

I mean, setting aside the possibility of economic warfare because it's a) thin and b) only going to be a useful tactic against a large corp who are liable to fight back anyway.


If as massively outclassed corp is decced, what invariably happens is that they don't undock/drop to NPC corp. That's hardly spurring engagement or content, really. So a bunch of people trade in stations or play other stuff? Not exactly the stuff of dreams for either party tbh.

Yes, yes, eve is hard™, htfu etc, etc, ad-infinitum, however when people aren't undocking and/or simply doing something else you'll have a hard time convincing me that is healthy for the overall game long term.

Even if wardecs did suddenly require mutuality, it's not like non-consensual PvP is 'dead', it never will be until weapons are disabled Blink

Obviously it's not ideal that many wardecs end up in docking up and sitting there, but that's not a reason to make wardecs mutual. It's a reason to provide incentives to fight.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#18 - 2013-01-17 10:00:13 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You miss the point, I think. I may be wrong

I read that as as "people who dont want to fight wont, so what's the actual point?"

I mean, setting aside the possibility of economic warfare because it's a) thin and b) only going to be a useful tactic against a large corp who are liable to fight back anyway.


If as massively outclassed corp is decced, what invariably happens is that they don't undock/drop to NPC corp. That's hardly spurring engagement or content, really. So a bunch of people trade in stations or play other stuff? Not exactly the stuff of dreams for either party tbh.

Yes, yes, eve is hard™, htfu etc, etc, ad-infinitum, however when people aren't undocking and/or simply doing something else you'll have a hard time convincing me that is healthy for the overall game long term.

Even if wardecs did suddenly require mutuality, it's not like non-consensual PvP is 'dead', it never will be until weapons are disabled Blink


I think asking "people who dont want to fight wont, so why bother" is a terrible approach. They should be asking how to encourage those people to fight, or to stand up in some form other than just ship spinning, not asking if it should just be scrapped because oh well those people dont want to be part of it.
NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#19 - 2013-01-17 10:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: NightCrawler 85
I can understand that CCP is not satesfied with how the current war dec system works. It must be very frustrating to get people raging on forums (and most likely more then one petition) from newish players that feels harassed because they cant do anything, and wants CCP to stop the war.

But i would not agree that both sides had to agree to a war.
Please keep in mind im a massive carebear at this point Big smile
The current war dec system means that anyone can attack you at anytime, and they dont even need a reason to do so. If this was suddenly taken away,well as someone mentioned they could make a "PVP free server" basically and see how boring EVE would be. And not just boring..suddenly anyone could say whatever they wanted and there would really be no consequenses (sp) at all!
Mercs would no longer really be needed, exept for 0.0/low sec/WH space "wars", beeing "diplomatic" and gaining friends that wander in the.. darker sides of EVE would be pointless because you would no longer need friends that could potentially help you if you got war decced.
I know some people think war decs force new players to PVP, but in my own opinion this is far from the truth. A war dec gives a new player the motivation to fight for something,and allows them to blow people up without having their conscience getting in the way because they "killed" someone and caused them to actually loose assets. And if they dident want to fight, and dont like the idea of spending a week docked in a station because they cant be bothered to add the war targets to their watch list, or keep an eye on local..well they can always leave the corp while said war dec is going on. Ofc this has the side effect of it showing in your employment history,but most will understand the reason for this, especially if the character in question is younger at the time.

So short version.. The current war dec system might seem cruel for some, but in my own opinion its needed for the game as a whole and helps everyone in one way or another, if for nothing else then a greater appriciation for the times there is no wars and you can do what you want without having to worry about getting blown up as soon as you turn your back [Smile

Phoibe Enterprises

The Eve Reader -  Audio Recordings of Eve Chronicles
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#20 - 2013-01-17 10:06:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Oh No! The Sky is Falling! A single CCP Dev expresses a single comment that you disagree with!
EVE is DEAD!

Or.....
We could not over-react.
It's a single Devs singular opinion thats posited as a question. It's not even a definitive statement. I recognise for some of you english may not be a primary language, but it has it's nuances to.

Edit.
I also note virtually no-one has paid any attention to the 'Both sides should have the ability to cause losses' part of his statement.
So I guess you all like your risk free ganking where you know exactly how much it will cost you. And know the other guy can't fight back. Who's the carebear in this case.
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