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Plurimus Libertas

Author
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2013-01-19 20:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Maire Gheren
I would feel much more comfortable with these operations if those involved were to acquire slaves, free them first, then offer passage to the Republic. The entire goal of the Reclamation has been to ultimately free slaves, and the process of emancipating a slave to become a free Amarr citizen is not so horribly onerous. If a free man or woman wishes to travel elsewhere in search of opportunity, then may the grace of God be with them.

Nine generations is a poor standard, a bottom rung of mediocrity to catch out our most inept of Holders. If our Holders cannot instill the teachings of God and the Amarrian way into their slaves, such that so many of them wish to return to barbarism, then it is past time that our Holders must be held or lifted to a higher standard.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2013-01-20 02:44:38 UTC
The purpose of this whole operation was to take those slaves to the Minmatarr Republic. If they had offered a choice since the start, many may have not followed them and it would have been a serious blow to the "justice" of their cause. So I believe, captain Gheren, that they are too much aware of the vulnerability of their arguments, so the option will never be offered first due to fear. The "freedom fighters" value liberty, but apparently not as much as they value our skill to make those slaves really commit to the Empire.

And, before they start yelling about it, I'm not saying all slaves would choose to remain in the Empire. Unfortunately, not all have accepted the truth of the Empire. I'm saying that an important proportion of them would, and this proportion is what makes the need for their "freedom of choice" to be postponed in a real act of hypocrisy.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#83 - 2013-01-20 05:42:55 UTC
Yeah I'm sure all 1.3 million of these evacuees were kidnapped, dragged kicking and screaming away from the temple they were praying in while waiting for the Amarrian god to smile upon them a few hundred years after their deaths. Yeah, sure.

To all of you dubious slavers and your apologists please remember that there are literally thousands of people, many of them slaves, cast adrift in cargo containers every day. Who's to say that those evacuees weren't collected from space or, were handed over to FE or EM by humanitarian capsuleers, over a long period of time and transported en masse in this convoy?

Oh well, why muddy the waters with rational explanations when wild conspiracies are so much more fun?
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#84 - 2013-01-20 05:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Nick Bete wrote:
Yeah I'm sure all 1.3 million of these evacuees were kidnapped, dragged kicking and screaming away from the temple they were praying in while waiting for the Amarrian god to smile upon them a few hundred years after their deaths. Yeah, sure.

To all of you dubious slavers and your apologists please remember that there are literally thousands of people, many of them slaves, cast adrift in cargo containers every day. Who's to say that those evacuees weren't collected from space or, were handed over to FE or EM by humanitarian capsuleers, over a long period of time and transported en masse in this convoy?

Oh well, why muddy the waters with rational explanations when wild conspiracies are so much more fun?


You say it like its impossible. I shouldn't have to point *again* to the Elder Fleet and the canisters of Insrum they dropped over cities that incapacitated and disoriented those who breathed in the gas, and then everyone affected conveniently decided to leave behind everything they ever knew with armed invaders they had never even seen before in their entire lives for a future that was completely and totally uncertain with nothing but the cloths on their backs. Yeah, that happened and this is hard to believe.

Baring the fact that we were actually provided clarity on the subject of their liberation it wouldn't hurt to leave these predesignated prejudices at the door aye?

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#85 - 2013-01-20 14:35:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:

You do realise that the Pickup point for the Convoy was not Planetside, right? It was in Sasta where the Convoy is specifically noted as having docked to pick up these Passengers.

The Only Station in Sasta belongs to the Ammatar Fleet. Are you seriously suggesting that we managed to abduct 1.3 Million People from the Station without the Ammatar Fleet either Noticing, or doing anything about it?

That would imply Incompetence on a Massive Scale by the Ammatar Fleet.


And if it is a capsuleer run operation ? If they slaves were already on the capsuleer market or in the hands of a capsuleer to begin with, what does the Ammatar Fleet has to do with that ?

Or do you have sources pointing out that the slaves in question were handled by a baseliner entity ?


That being the case, then the Operation would have been Legitimate in the Eyes of the Mandate. It is not illegal in the Mandate to have a Registered Slave Onboard your ship, nor to move one from one place to another.

Basically my point was, this was a Simple Convoy, not a Smash and Grab Raid as being portrayed by many of the Amarrians and Ammatar in this Thread. We entered the Mandate, we took on legitimate passengers, we went home. Nothing that was done was against Mandate Law.

If we'd broken the Laws of the Mandate, the Fleet would have gotten involved. As they didn't then no crime was committed within the Mandate.

Please also note that although the Security for the Convoy was handled by Electus Matari Capsuleers, the Actual Transport Duties were handled by Personnel in the Employ of Freedom Extension.


That is actually not true.

It is actually illegal regarding Ammatar laws since the ships and personnel transporting and contracting the slaves belonged to Freedom Extension. Freedom Extension is not bound by CONCORD regulations and laws, but by the sovereign state they operate into.

Where it becomes tricky and vague is that the "commodities" (the slaves) were acquired on capsuleer market or capsuleer regulated space. They were then handled to a baseliner corporation. What are the exact regulations covering the transfers of goods between an entity under the SCC and CONCORD laws and a sovereign entity ?
Kithrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2013-01-20 14:39:53 UTC
Let's pretend for a moment we are not talking about slavery. Lets also pretend we are not talking about amarr matari relations.

We have a nation with casuleer support encroaching on another nation outside of due process to retrieve what they claim to be theirs.

This is an act of war plain and simple. We are no longer talking about settling issues. We are talking about using military power to achieve a desired end because one side doesn't want to talk anymore.

If this is what you the reader want/agreed with then God have mercy on us all and my he forgive us all for what we must do.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#87 - 2013-01-20 19:35:41 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Someone didn't read the news or the thread.


You're one to talk.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#88 - 2013-01-20 19:49:25 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Someone didn't read the news or the thread.


You're one to talk.


Indeed I am.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

Flavius Arcturus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2013-01-20 23:46:12 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Flavius Arcturus wrote:
Of course you don't, because it's so much easier to ignore the litany of evidence provided that stands CLEARLY to the contrary of every other lie spouted with regards to the "fantastic" conditions faced by those who have been kidnapped and relocated against their will.

Your ignorance and stout defiance to published fact is beyond astounding.


Keep barking, slaver.


I have not yet begun to fight. The fact that you can read such clear testimony and scathing articles regarding the internment and reeducation camps and still be so staunch in your beliefs is mind blowing. You don't actually care for the well beig of those that are kidnapped, you simply seek to advance your own dogmatic and misguided beliefs. The Amarr have been guiding and providing for the Amatarr for longer than your race has been exploring space. We know our roles in this story and we act not out of savagry, but with parental caring. It's time you tended to your own rotting federation, rather then minding the affairs of those who know what they're doing.

My family has been involved in the care and protection of Minmatar and Amatarr for many many generations. Never in our stewadship to God in that same care and protection of the Minmatar have they been so wholly abused, and neglected as they are in the internment camps. You call me slaver, but I've cared for what is mine. They are clothed, fed, given shelter, educated, taught trades and raised to love and serve God. You offer nothing, certainly not for free. I give EVERYTHING to them for free, only asking obedience. The reward of that obedience is not what I give them to sustain life, for that is a gift from me, their reward is what they receive after death.

You can't pay for your soul, fool.

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-01-21 08:24:38 UTC
Flavius Arcturus wrote:
You don't actually care for the well beig of those that are kidnapped, you simply seek to advance your own dogmatic and misguided beliefs.


The rest of your statement is just frothing, outraged bluster with no factual basis whatsoever (and you're clearly aware of this, which is why you're so emotionally anguished), but I had to call attention to just how hilarious and ironic this statement is.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-01-21 08:26:08 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
This is an act of war plain and simple. We are no longer talking about settling issues. We are talking about using military power to achieve a desired end because one side doesn't want to talk anymore.


Well when one side was asking for something the other consistently refused to give despite it being a perfectly reasonable request for over eight hundred years...

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#92 - 2013-01-21 13:07:36 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
This is an act of war plain and simple. We are no longer talking about settling issues. We are talking about using military power to achieve a desired end because one side doesn't want to talk anymore.


Well when one side was asking for something the other consistently refused to give despite it being a perfectly reasonable request for over eight hundred years...


Or perhaps the continued refusal means that the request wasn't reasonable?

The Shakorites remind be of a spoilt toddler. When they don't get their own way they throw a tantrum.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-01-21 13:23:16 UTC
What the hell is a shakorite? Sounds like something a miner would look for in a belt.

Anyways typical reaction from bitter enslavers. Your god doesn't stop a man from his right to liberty and prosperity.

A person is the master of their own fate.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Flavius Arcturus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2013-01-21 15:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Flavius Arcturus
Andreus Ixiris wrote:


The rest of your statement is just frothing, outraged bluster with no factual basis whatsoever (and you're clearly aware of this, which is why you're so emotionally anguished), but I had to call attention to just how hilarious and ironic this statement is.



Either you have a cognitive function so severely limited that you should under no circumstances be permitted to live among normal society, much less in control of a spacecraft, or you've been spending so much time in your quarters huffing coolant fumes. Either situation warrants forced seclusion or euthanasia. Perhaps even I could take you in to my holdings, to better give your thus far fruitless life purpose. I can assure you, I'll treat you with the same dignity I treat all under my care and supervision. I even have roles for those with physical and mental disabilities such as yourself. I've listed the articles below as posted previously in this discussion as to my former points, I heartily invite you to read the hyperlinked articles in the quote below. That is of course, assuming you can afford a neocom model capable of accessing them due to your apparent drug use and/or mental infancy.

Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:
You're going to have to provide something solid if you want to be taken seriously, you know.


You don't read the news much, do you? Your refugee camps are a complete disaster, you can't provide half the aid you claim to offer and you routinely shut out or even slaughter those who refuse to bend to your indoctrination. You sure as heck don't great all your refugees with open arms, either.

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#95 - 2013-01-21 16:08:27 UTC
Mitara Newelle, seriously, shut this man up.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#96 - 2013-01-21 18:35:31 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
What the hell is a shakorite?


A shakorite is a supporter of the tyrant Shakor.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-01-21 18:42:15 UTC
Flavius Arcturus wrote:
Either you have a cognitive function so severely limited that you should under no circumstances be permitted to live among normal society, much less in control of a spacecraft, or you've been spending so much time in your quarters huffing coolant fumes.


Ah, so you've been reduced to angry, frothing ad hominem attacks.

Flavius Arcturus wrote:
Either situation warrants forced seclusion or euthanasia. Perhaps even I could take you in to my holdings, to better give your thus far fruitless life purpose. I can assure you, I'll treat you with the same dignity I treat all under my care and supervision. I even have roles for those with physical and mental disabilities such as yourself.


I invite you to come and try, blowhard. I'm not precisely hard to find - ask the Amarr militiaman I killed while he was trespassing in Intaki today.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#98 - 2013-01-21 19:39:41 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
That is actually not true.

It is actually illegal regarding Ammatar laws since the ships and personnel transporting and contracting the slaves belonged to Freedom Extension. Freedom Extension is not bound by CONCORD regulations and laws, but by the sovereign state they operate into.

Where it becomes tricky and vague is that the "commodities" (the slaves) were acquired on capsuleer market or capsuleer regulated space. They were then handled to a baseliner corporation. What are the exact regulations covering the transfers of goods between an entity under the SCC and CONCORD laws and a sovereign entity ?


Apologies for the Delay in response, was acquiring some expert knowledge on the Legalities of this Situation. In the eyes of CONCORD, there was no breach of their Regulations. The handling of these People is purely a matter for Local Laws regardless of who is handling them, . If Local Laws were breached within the Mandate, it would be the Responsibility of the Ammatar Fleet to react and contain the situation.

As the Fleet did not React to the Convoy, it can therefore be inferred that No Local Laws were breached.

The Message I received from the DED is shown Below

Message from DED Officer wrote:

Mr Darkefyre,

We are well aware of the situation between the Republic and the Mandate.

We have investigated thoroughly, and there has been no breach of law. The Republic sets its own guidelines as to what is considered contraband within its borders, and as such if it wishes to allow Freedom Extension amnesty to repatriate slaves and release them, then it is perfectly within its rights to do so.

Similarly, responsiblity lies with the Ammatar Mandate to maintain and secure its borders. The only time that the Directive Enforcement Department would be required to intervene would be if shots were fired that were in breach of any part of the Yulai Convention.

Regards,

Arve Vesren
von Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2013-01-21 20:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: von Khan
Mekhana wrote:
What the hell is a shakorite? Sounds like something a miner would look for in a belt.

Anyways typical reaction from bitter enslavers. Your god doesn't stop a man from his right to liberty and prosperity.

A person is the master of their own fate.


You are right Miss Mekhana, God doesn't stop a man from his right to liberty and prosperity, we do that ourselves imposing social limitations. You are also right that we are masters of our own fate, but ask yourself what is the purpose of that fate. Human life cannot be realized by itself. Our life is an open question, an incomplete project, still to be brought to fruition and realized. Each man's fundamental question is: How will this be realized—becoming man? How does one learn the art of living? Which is the path toward happiness?

We provide that path... that choice to every soul that we care for, that is our stewardship. The deepest poverty is the inability of joy, the tediousness of a life considered absurd and contradictory. This poverty is widespread today, in very different forms in the materially rich as well as the poor. The inability of joy presupposes and produces the inability to love, produces jealousy, avarice—all defects that devastate the life of individuals.

von Khan

Flavius Arcturus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2013-01-21 21:21:38 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:


Ah, so you've been reduced to presenting established fact and concrete evidence in oposition to my one-liner quips, and repeated nonsensical use of the phrase "ad hominem". .



fixed that for you. You may well see me soon enough.


"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10