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Plurimus Libertas
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Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#61 - 2013-01-19 13:37:08 UTC
Luftschreck-hnolku, you seem to be of the persuasion that believes slaves resenting their newfound freedom is the norm. That it is "unwilling" liberation for the most part. Do you have any sources on that, or are your anecdotal tall tales the only thing you have to bring to the table?

You're going to have to provide something solid if you want to be taken seriously, you know.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#62 - 2013-01-19 14:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Jinari Otsito wrote:
You're going to have to provide something solid if you want to be taken seriously, you know.


You don't read the news much, do you? Your refugee camps are a complete disaster, you can't provide half the aid you claim to offer and you routinely shut out or even slaughter those who refuse to bend to your indoctrination. You sure as heck don't great all your refugees with open arms, either.

Seriously, every news article that has ever cropped up on this issue only illustrates that you have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, and Jarizza? Let me guess, you've never heard of that either, right? Seriously, your blinders could stop an overheated tachyon beam.


Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Which is still no less a matter of opinion than the Republic claiming the same. The difference is that if the slaves really want to leave the Republic, they can.


Be sure to tell that to the families of the people I had to kill when the tried to stop me from getting back to the Mandate.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-01-19 14:54:08 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Be sure to tell that to the families of the people I had to kill when the tried to stop me from getting back to the Mandate.


No, because I don't believe you.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Amun Khonsu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-01-19 14:58:04 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
In a daring covert operation the Minmatar Republic liberated over million slaves from Ammatar space.
May many more be freed from bondage.


My head hurts now.

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#65 - 2013-01-19 15:02:01 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:
You're going to have to provide something solid if you want to be taken seriously, you know.


You don't read the news much, do you? Your refugee camps are a complete disaster, you can't provide half the aid you claim to offer and you routinely shut out or even slaughter those who refuse to bend to your indoctrination. You sure as heck don't great all your refugees with open arms, either.

Seriously, every news article that has ever cropped up on this issue only illustrates that you have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, and Jarizza? Let me guess, you've never heard of that either, right? Seriously, your blinders could stop an overheated tachyon beam.


I do all those things, do I? Or maybe you mean the greater kind of "you", so you mean SuVee does all that? The State maybe? If you can't even ascertain where people come from, I doubt you are in any position to talk about blinders. As for a few news pieces shedding light upon abnormal conditions and events, I'd say exceptions proving the rules.

You don't think much, do you?

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Flavius Arcturus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2013-01-19 15:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Flavius Arcturus
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Be sure to tell that to the families of the people I had to kill when the tried to stop me from getting back to the Mandate.


No, because I don't believe you.



Of course you don't, because it's so much easier to ignore the litany of evidence provided that stands CLEARLY to the contrary of every other lie spouted with regards to the "fantastic" conditions faced by those who have been kidnapped and relocated against their will.

Your ignorance and stout defiance to published fact is beyond astounding.

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2013-01-19 15:06:56 UTC
Flavius Arcturus wrote:
Of course you don't, because it's so much easier to ignore the litany of evidence provided that stands CLEARLY to the contrary of every other lie spouted with regards to the "fantastic" conditions faced by those who have been kidnapped and relocated against their will.

Your ignorance and stout defiance to published fact is beyond astounding.


Keep barking, slaver.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Lyrah Okkus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2013-01-19 15:47:55 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
As for a few news pieces shedding light upon abnormal conditions and events, I'd say exceptions proving the rules.

You don't even know what that phrase means. "Exceptions test the rules." Your "rules" don't pass a smell test. I saw all of the things in that news and more. Are you going to try to suppress me like all of the other egomaniac bigots who grabbed me? Are you going to come and threaten me with a mass driver until I repent and give up my faith? It didn't work the last time. It won't work now.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#69 - 2013-01-19 16:02:17 UTC
Lyrah Okkus wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:
As for a few news pieces shedding light upon abnormal conditions and events, I'd say exceptions proving the rules.

You don't even know what that phrase means. "Exceptions test the rules." Your "rules" don't pass a smell test. I saw all of the things in that news and more. Are you going to try to suppress me like all of the other egomaniac bigots who grabbed me? Are you going to come and threaten me with a mass driver until I repent and give up my faith? It didn't work the last time. It won't work now.


Now I know where all those socks have gone. You really expect anyone to believe that you're somehow the norm?

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Lyrah Okkus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2013-01-19 16:10:59 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Now I know where all those socks have gone. You really expect anyone to believe that you're somehow the norm?

I managed to slip back home again. Most can't.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#71 - 2013-01-19 16:24:13 UTC
Lyrah Okkus wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Now I know where all those socks have gone. You really expect anyone to believe that you're somehow the norm?

I managed to slip back home again. Most won't.


Fixed your post. Remember, if you can assert something without anything to support it, others will do so as well.

I don't even have a dog in this fight, but you people keep drawing my interest with your almost insane ramblings and wild accusations, lacking even basic support.

Read the news report and consider the implications of this. There was no raid or force involved, unless you think the Mandate is so wildly inept that they can't protect over a million(!) men and women from being hauled off by force. The only way to pull this off would be a calm and orderly evacuation of willing people.

The venture is also claimed to be funded by capsuleers with significant amounts of resources at hand. Facilities for these people wouldn't be costly at all, for a capsuleer organization, nor will medical aid, food and so on. I could easily fund such a thing myself, barely putting a dent in my wallet. It would require intentional malice to provide sub-standard conditions for these people.

With some minor efforts and investment in training (if need be), this will end with a large work force carrying gratitude and skills to wherever they choose to go. Not even the rather emotional and knee-jerk Republic is dumb enough to screw such a thing up. Especially when it's done with capsuleer assistance.

Frankly, you and Luftschreck-hnolku's wild fairy tales sound less and less realistic by the minute, since it'd frankly be absolutely stupid to do those things when infinitesimally greater investments would lead to enormous benefits. For your tall tales to be real, it wouldn't just require the Republic to be stupid, it would require them to not be greedy and I'm not betting on both of those to be true.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Lyrah Okkus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2013-01-19 16:39:55 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
There was no raid or force involved, unless you think the Mandate is so wildly inept that they can't protect over a million(!) men and women from being hauled off by force. The only way to pull this off would be a calm and orderly evacuation of willing people.

This isn't a clash of dusties we are talking about here.Take a group of people with weapons telling a crowd of civilians to do something. Imply that the weapons will be used on those civilians if they don't do as they are told. You won't likely get a gunfight. Things will be quiet. That doesn't mean it was a willing action.
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#73 - 2013-01-19 16:49:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Lyrah Okkus wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:
There was no raid or force involved, unless you think the Mandate is so wildly inept that they can't protect over a million(!) men and women from being hauled off by force. The only way to pull this off would be a calm and orderly evacuation of willing people.

This isn't a clash of dusties we are talking about here.Take a group of people with weapons telling a crowd of civilians to do something. Imply that the weapons will be used on those civilians if they don't do as they are told. You won't likely get a gunfight. Things will be quiet. That doesn't mean it was a willing action.


You do realise that the Pickup point for the Convoy was not Planetside, right? It was in Sasta where the Convoy is specifically noted as having docked to pick up these Passengers.

The Only Station in Sasta belongs to the Ammatar Fleet. Are you seriously suggesting that we managed to abduct 1.3 Million People from the Station without the Ammatar Fleet either Noticing, or doing anything about it?

That would imply Incompetence on a Massive Scale by the Ammatar Fleet.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-01-19 17:26:10 UTC
I wish I could've taken part in the operation but I'm no longer affiliated with the TLF.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#75 - 2013-01-19 18:22:41 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Lyrah Okkus wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:
There was no raid or force involved, unless you think the Mandate is so wildly inept that they can't protect over a million(!) men and women from being hauled off by force. The only way to pull this off would be a calm and orderly evacuation of willing people.

This isn't a clash of dusties we are talking about here.Take a group of people with weapons telling a crowd of civilians to do something. Imply that the weapons will be used on those civilians if they don't do as they are told. You won't likely get a gunfight. Things will be quiet. That doesn't mean it was a willing action.


You do realise that the Pickup point for the Convoy was not Planetside, right? It was in Sasta where the Convoy is specifically noted as having docked to pick up these Passengers.

The Only Station in Sasta belongs to the Ammatar Fleet. Are you seriously suggesting that we managed to abduct 1.3 Million People from the Station without the Ammatar Fleet either Noticing, or doing anything about it?

That would imply Incompetence on a Massive Scale by the Ammatar Fleet.


And if it is a capsuleer run operation ? If they slaves were already on the capsuleer market or in the hands of a capsuleer to begin with, what does the Ammatar Fleet has to do with that ?

Or do you have sources pointing out that the slaves in question were handled by a baseliner entity ?
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#76 - 2013-01-19 18:57:04 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:

You do realise that the Pickup point for the Convoy was not Planetside, right? It was in Sasta where the Convoy is specifically noted as having docked to pick up these Passengers.

The Only Station in Sasta belongs to the Ammatar Fleet. Are you seriously suggesting that we managed to abduct 1.3 Million People from the Station without the Ammatar Fleet either Noticing, or doing anything about it?

That would imply Incompetence on a Massive Scale by the Ammatar Fleet.


And if it is a capsuleer run operation ? If they slaves were already on the capsuleer market or in the hands of a capsuleer to begin with, what does the Ammatar Fleet has to do with that ?

Or do you have sources pointing out that the slaves in question were handled by a baseliner entity ?


That being the case, then the Operation would have been Legitimate in the Eyes of the Mandate. It is not illegal in the Mandate to have a Registered Slave Onboard your ship, nor to move one from one place to another.

Basically my point was, this was a Simple Convoy, not a Smash and Grab Raid as being portrayed by many of the Amarrians and Ammatar in this Thread. We entered the Mandate, we took on legitimate passengers, we went home. Nothing that was done was against Mandate Law.

If we'd broken the Laws of the Mandate, the Fleet would have gotten involved. As they didn't then no crime was committed within the Mandate.

Please also note that although the Security for the Convoy was handled by Electus Matari Capsuleers, the Actual Transport Duties were handled by Personnel in the Employ of Freedom Extension.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#77 - 2013-01-19 19:06:10 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:

You do realise that the Pickup point for the Convoy was not Planetside, right? It was in Sasta where the Convoy is specifically noted as having docked to pick up these Passengers.

The Only Station in Sasta belongs to the Ammatar Fleet. Are you seriously suggesting that we managed to abduct 1.3 Million People from the Station without the Ammatar Fleet either Noticing, or doing anything about it?

That would imply Incompetence on a Massive Scale by the Ammatar Fleet.


And if it is a capsuleer run operation ? If they slaves were already on the capsuleer market or in the hands of a capsuleer to begin with, what does the Ammatar Fleet has to do with that ?

Or do you have sources pointing out that the slaves in question were handled by a baseliner entity ?


That being the case, then the Operation would have been Legitimate in the Eyes of the Mandate. It is not illegal in the Mandate to have a Registered Slave Onboard your ship, nor to move one from one place to another.

Basically my point was, this was a Simple Convoy, not a Smash and Grab Raid as being portrayed by many of the Amarrians and Ammatar in this Thread. We entered the Mandate, we took on legitimate passengers, we went home. Nothing that was done was against Mandate Law.

If we'd broken the Laws of the Mandate, the Fleet would have gotten involved. As they didn't then no crime was committed within the Mandate.

Please also note that although the Security for the Convoy was handled by Electus Matari Capsuleers, the Actual Transport Duties were handled by Personnel in the Employ of Freedom Extension.


This sounds both reasonable and plausible. My offer earlier in this thread still stand. I'm sure it'll do wonders for the unconvinced if there's independent verification of their well-being.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2013-01-19 19:13:28 UTC
I pray for those who lost their lives in this raid.

I pray for those who where taken from loving hands to be tossed to the wolves.

I pray most of all for the families who's lives have been irrevocably disturbed by this gross injustice.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#79 - 2013-01-19 19:25:33 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
I pray for those who lost their lives in this raid.

I pray for those who where taken from loving hands to be tossed to the wolves.

I pray most of all for the families who's lives have been irrevocably disturbed by this gross injustice.


Someone didn't read the news or the thread.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#80 - 2013-01-19 19:31:01 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:

This sounds both reasonable and plausible. My offer earlier in this thread still stand. I'm sure it'll do wonders for the unconvinced if there's independent verification of their well-being.


I'll pass the Suggestion up the Chain of Command to my Superiors.