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CSM notes on faucets & sinks
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Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-01-17 04:42:07 UTC
can someone help me here ? lol
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#22 - 2013-01-17 04:45:53 UTC
Debra Tao wrote:
can someone help me here ? lol


teach me

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#23 - 2013-01-17 04:49:38 UTC
Candy Oshea wrote:
Debra Tao wrote:

When you lose a ship you wil have to buy a new one thus giving isk to manufacturers, explorers and whatnot so you will just transfer part of your isk to those people while CCP will only take a marginal cut from taxes.


A killmail takes a 300m hulk/asset for e.g. turns it into item drops, a small insurance payout & a small amount of sorebutt.

Now, if i have to buy a new one, do i still have 300m? no. i have item drops & a small insurance payout. the game/myself has lost isk. whether the isk was 'sunk' directly by CCP from taxes or not is irrelevant, 300m isk has been removed from the game.

I believe what you are saying is that ship losses, stimulate & propagate industry types to make ships etc and sell them. thats fine, but i still lost isk in the first instance, not when i buy a new one.

i can't see it any other way.



@ Candy. The part where your wrong is, "300m isk has been removed from the game" . Your first 300 went to a manufacturer/marketer. Your second 300 ALSO went to a manufacturer/marketer. The ISK itself, never left the game, and insurance created more ISK (faucet on) into the game. Sales fee's sunk a little of the isk.
which brings us back to 'Value Loss'.

I think Value Loss, especially uninsured items, mods, implants, etc. can be treated the same as any other sink.
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-01-17 04:50:01 UTC
If you lose a Hulk you lose a ship but you don't lose isk so the total amount of money in the game stays the same and is even increased by the insurance payout. I really don't see how you can disagree with me on that. :P
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-01-17 04:56:29 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:

I think Value Loss, especially uninsured items, mods, implants, etc. can be treated the same as any other sink.


When talking about inflation i don't understand that and i am pretty sure you are wrong about that...



Player A finds shinny item and sell it to Player B
Player B dies in fire because he is terrible at the game
Player A still has the isk that Player B gave to him and can buy stuff with that...


Let's imagine that every sinlge player lose his pod tomorrow, there will be an increased demand for implants and there will be a huge inflation...
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#26 - 2013-01-17 05:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Candy Oshea
Are you saying there is no difference in me selling the hulk and losing it.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Dersk
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-01-17 05:02:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersk
Candy Oshea wrote:
Are you saying there is no difference in me selling the hulk and losing it.


There is no difference to the amount of isk in the game in those two, outside of the insurance payout you receive.

It's the difference between dropping a $1 apple down a garbage disposal, and setting fire to a one dollar bill. Just because you can go to a grocery store and exchange them doesn't mean the two are the same.
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#28 - 2013-01-17 05:10:45 UTC
Dersk wrote:
Candy Oshea wrote:
Are you saying there is no difference in me selling the hulk and losing it.


There is no difference to the amount of isk in the game in those two, outside of the insurance payout you receive.

It's the difference between dropping a $1 apple down a garbage disposal, and setting fire to a one dollar bill. Just because you can go to a grocery store and exchange them doesn't mean the two are the same.


there is a 300m difference, i could sell the item, if i lose it i can't.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Dersk
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-01-17 05:12:00 UTC
Candy Oshea wrote:


there is a 300m difference, i could sell the item, if i lose it i can't.


Unless the isk the the other person's wallet (y'know, the one you bought it from?) is destroyed when you lose your hulk, no, you're wrong. There isn't a 300 million isk difference in EvE.

Your wallet and the sum of isk in EvE are not synonymous.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#30 - 2013-01-17 05:12:23 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
Implants come from LP stores...so they somewhat sink the isk, or half of the purchase cost. The rest is an LP/ISK conversion rate.
There would be inflation at first, but marketers would also 1-isk the prices right back down at some point.

Value loss on other items. Has to be healthy for the economy in some way. I'm not argueing to be bull headed btw, I truly believe it.

Edit Here: I also believe that inflation is directly relative to Supply and Demand.
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#31 - 2013-01-17 05:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Candy Oshea
this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#32 - 2013-01-17 05:21:29 UTC
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens with a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn;t it



Yes it is Lol

Bedtime for me. Great discussion. NN all.
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#33 - 2013-01-17 05:24:58 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens with a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn;t it



Yes it is Lol

Bedtime for me. Great discussion. NN all.


indeed thanks all for the debate.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#34 - 2013-01-17 05:46:35 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
CCP seem to appropriately be more concerned with money velocity than absolute values. Also, we don't have an important number: how much of those 30T end up segregated or abandoned (due i.e. to players turnover)? Without those informations it's not possible to balance inflow and outflow.


pretty much that.

Other things that matter.

1 - What CCP thinks the fair value of the assets generated each month that are not destroyed is. The cash that denominates the value of such can't just go away (which is what happens when sinks balanced against faucets).
2 - whether or not asset collectors are balanced against isk collectors (both exist).
3 - whether the playerbase is trending towards fielding assets that require more resources (and thus more cash to denominate the value of such and/or act as reserve for replacements).
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-01-17 05:52:58 UTC
Tauranon wrote:

3 - whether the playerbase is trending towards fielding assets that require more resources (and thus more cash to denominate the value of such and/or act as reserve for replacements).



That one is pretty easy to answer...

"Hey let's make a faction bs doctrine"
"good idea meanwhile i will camp BL so that we cannot fight anyone closer than 40 jumps away"
"perfect, let's just feed them with the usual cap ship here and there though"

You gotta love the CFC...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#36 - 2013-01-17 06:33:00 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Bump manufacturing fees in highsec. If my estimates are correct, changing it from the current negligible system to a mere quarter percent of estimated value of the production job is worth upwards of 3-6T isk/month in sinks while having negligible effects on the sale price of items between players.


But then I might have to actually start tracking my manufacturing fees and including them in my spreadsheets. Shocked

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#37 - 2013-01-17 06:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
RavenPaine wrote:
I didn't see Alliance fee's in the list. Should be a substantial amount
(snip)

It is there: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html click on SOV fees & you'll see the breakdown last FEB from alliance costs & SOV fees... 822M of it was form alliance fees from a single day then it was extrapolated for the entire month
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-01-17 07:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it

I'm a mechanical engineer too. What's your problem? Lol

RubyPorto wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Bump manufacturing fees in highsec. If my estimates are correct, changing it from the current negligible system to a mere quarter percent of estimated value of the production job is worth upwards of 3-6T isk/month in sinks while having negligible effects on the sale price of items between players.


But then I might have to actually start tracking my manufacturing fees and including them in my spreadsheets. Shocked


Pfft. 375k on a 150m isk ship. Cry me a river. Blink



e: Someone made the very valid point to me ingame that the sort of blanket adjustment to missions as I proposed would adversely affect newbies as that income is important to getting them on their feet. It's a good point! Fairly easily fixed though... I think by the time someone is capable of buying and properly fitting a ship capable of doing L4 missions, they'll probably have the isk that a lower up-front isk payment in exchange for a higher LP payout on the back end won't be much of a burden. So, leave L1-L3 missions untouched, only apply the change to L4. There's also still bounties as well as loot and salvage to provide some up-front isk to pay the LP costs with, so it'd probably work out okay.

Probably. Could be wrong. ;)

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#39 - 2013-01-17 08:10:10 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it

I'm a mechanical engineer too. What's your problem? Lol

RubyPorto wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Bump manufacturing fees in highsec. If my estimates are correct, changing it from the current negligible system to a mere quarter percent of estimated value of the production job is worth upwards of 3-6T isk/month in sinks while having negligible effects on the sale price of items between players.


But then I might have to actually start tracking my manufacturing fees and including them in my spreadsheets. Shocked


Pfft. 375k on a 150m isk ship. Cry me a river. Blink


I'm going to sit in the Alps and cry you a Rhine.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#40 - 2013-01-17 08:27:02 UTC
Small world ^_^

tis.

An Eve Story, that brings some things up id like answered. Learned alot today, plan on keeping on Bear

i introduced a guy i worked with to eve recently, was interesting to watch him develop a sense of things EVE. I gave him 100m Starter isk to get him set up, plenty for skillbooks and a few ships.

He started out with 1 character mining alot, then after he was teased about it at work, doing the missions etc, he wasn't skilled enough to handle the level 3 missions so he stuck to level 2's.

Arrowi took an eve break for new WoW exp.Oops
ArrowFast forward 3 Months
Arrowwhooash back playing eve

Shortly after i came back, i caught up with him in game (he got fired from work, so didn't have any way to get in touch, to check on his progress)

He said he "plexed up" bought them of the eve website, bought 3 characters and now runs 4 accounts, 3 in a class 2 wormhole and 1 in highsec station Trading. Shocked

Its an interesting behavior pattern, when i asked him why did you do that? his response was simple,"i couldn't make any isk.", he figured if he bought a tengu alt, and a salvager/prober alt, that they would. Making isk is a big part of the hook for alot of players that play the game, I introduced him to a few players, that lived in a c2 wh, he was amazed at the amount of isk the wh dwellers was making, but his skills couldn't handle it.

Now, what if we applied some math to the actual new players (not alts) that come to eve, buy 15b+ in isk directly from the print machine. and say 20% of say 500? actual new players. thats alot of plex & Isk changing hands.

When he bought the plex he received 12 newly npc created items, with a value of 500m.? i understand the only thing that gets created is the cards, which are destroyed when used by players. however he still ends up with the isk. which he has splashed around here and there, becoming somewhat of a faucet for builders and character traders.

IdeaWould it be safe to say that a high% of the daily volume is actually new plex cards.? Discuss.
IdeaWhat are the ramifications of this behaviour to the economy?

Sorry No TL:DR Pirate

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!