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CSM notes on faucets & sinks
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mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#201 - 2013-02-26 01:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
GoatChops wrote:
This thread was an excellent read and really helped me understand a few things I had never really considered.

Not being the sharpest tool in the shed I took the following away from it:

1. An ISK faucet is defined as ISK changing hand from NPCs to players
2. An ISK sink is defined as ISK changing hands from a players to NPCs
3. Contrary to what I believed ship losses in PvP are NOT a direct ISK sink because the actual "ISK"exist in the ship sellers wallet somewhere

Yes.

GoatChops wrote:
4. The speed that ISK changes hands between players or its "Velocity" (combined with more Faucets then sinks) is what causes ISK inflation (?)

Not quite. If "Isk Inflation" is just the amount of isk in the game growing, then any faucet contributes. Inflation of the price of commodities as a result of that generally doesn't happen (supply/demand factors on the materials used to build them matter way more), and PLEX prices are affected by velocity more than the actual excess of isk in the economy (or that's what the evidence suggests to me, anyway). That said, two things about velocity: First, it's velocity of *any* isk, not just between players (see: incursions), and second, isk inflation does play an indirect role simply by meaning there's more isk to move around if the factor at the time is velocity between players.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
#202 - 2013-02-26 09:07:50 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Velocity is one part, but the balance between ISK faucets and sinks also plays a role. And of course, ISK inflation is affected by/affects Mudflation (materials inflation) because ISK doesn't quite behave like a real currency (basically because, unlike the real world, individuals can create it).


Getting back on topic:

When someone takes out a loan the money appears, like it's been created. This is true of all economies that use a fiat currency. This is how the western economies have become so bloated with debt; the ad hoc creation of money. It's what's causing inflation in eve, and I still assert the way to tackle it is to look at the real world and see the methods used to cope.

  1. Taxation. The markets tax sales; that rate could be increased. As a LOT of isk changes hands through the markets, this would have a large direct effect on the money supply. This would affect all areas of the game; nulsec and empire.

  2. NPC services. Increasing fees for using research and manufacturing queues. They are always active and represent an isk sink. This affects empire more than nulsec.

  3. Throttling the anomolies. Slow down the creation of isk, allowing the current sinks to work at a pace that allows the economy to adjust. Again a galaxy-wide effect, as I believe the mission rewards are a minor part of the total mission take; bounties make up the majority of isk earnt (correct or no?). (Salvage plays no part in this discussion, as someone else needs to have already created the isk to buy the stuff).


Naturally an option is to leave it as it is and hope for the best. That tends to be also a real world option.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#203 - 2013-02-26 09:25:24 UTC
mynnna wrote:
GoatChops wrote:
This thread was an excellent read and really helped me understand a few things I had never really considered.

Not being the sharpest tool in the shed I took the following away from it:

1. An ISK faucet is defined as ISK changing hand from NPCs to players
2. An ISK sink is defined as ISK changing hands from a players to NPCs
3. Contrary to what I believed ship losses in PvP are NOT a direct ISK sink because the actual "ISK"exist in the ship sellers wallet somewhere

Yes.

GoatChops wrote:
4. The speed that ISK changes hands between players or its "Velocity" (combined with more Faucets then sinks) is what causes ISK inflation (?)

Not quite. If "Isk Inflation" is just the amount of isk in the game growing, then any faucet contributes. Inflation of the price of commodities as a result of that generally doesn't happen (supply/demand factors on the materials used to build them matter way more), and PLEX prices are affected by velocity more than the actual excess of isk in the economy (or that's what the evidence suggests to me, anyway). That said, two things about velocity: First, it's velocity of *any* isk, not just between players (see: incursions), and second, isk inflation does play an indirect role simply by meaning there's more isk to move around if the factor at the time is velocity between players.


This is quality posting.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#204 - 2013-02-26 09:31:32 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:

NPC services. Increasing fees for using research and manufacturing queues. They are always active and represent an isk sink. This affects empire more than nulsec.

Naturally an option is to leave it as it is and hope for the best. That tends to be also a real world option.


Imo NPC research and industry slots should cost as much as POS slots.

That would be a first step to dis-incentivize pure hi sec production by null sec players, would be a first step at incentivizing POSes usage (and thus help ices markets and hi sec wardecs) and be a sensible ISK sink.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
#205 - 2013-02-26 10:23:16 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:

NPC services. Increasing fees for using research and manufacturing queues. They are always active and represent an isk sink. This affects empire more than nulsec.

Naturally an option is to leave it as it is and hope for the best. That tends to be also a real world option.


Imo NPC research and industry slots should cost as much as POS slots.

That would be a first step to dis-incentivize pure hi sec production by null sec players, would be a first step at incentivizing POSes usage (and thus help ices markets and hi sec wardecs) and be a sensible ISK sink.


If it promotes POS usage then the net effect would be a reduction in the sink as people move away from the NPC facilities. I'm unaware of pos's using any NPC-sourced materials, so therefore they don't contribute to the isk sink. As a benefit of dissuading the nulsec alliances from hogging hisec resources, I agree, but that's for another topic.

An increase to the sink would be to charge for the entire time in the queue, not just for the active time. While that MAY drive people away from the NPC facilities, equally it may not. I believe the queues would shrink a bit but they wouldn't disappear, and each queue-hour would likely be sinking multiple amounts of isk.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#206 - 2013-02-26 10:53:03 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:

If it promotes POS usage then the net effect would be a reduction in the sink as people move away from the NPC facilities.


1)your assuming build prices have a part in production, i mine my own minerals crowd & noobs will always use stations and ignore fees, some ppl just want to mine and build there own **** thats fine. (this is VV target)

2) your assuming major builders aren't already using pos's, which means like most scrub economics nerds what want to talk big here & have never actually traded or built anything in eve your ignoring the 0.75 speed bonus a pos gives.

3) Your assuming every roleplay hi-sec producer with his merlin blueprint is going say, holy **** guys i have to spend 4k extra an hour per slot, better go spend 2b+ to optimize my build.

VV;s idea is solid, i dont always agree with the nerd.

@JerryTPepridge
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
#207 - 2013-02-26 16:44:22 UTC
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:

If it promotes POS usage then the net effect would be a reduction in the sink as people move away from the NPC facilities.


1)your assuming build prices have a part in production, i mine my own minerals crowd & noobs will always use stations and ignore fees, some ppl just want to mine and build there own **** thats fine. (this is VV target)

2) your assuming major builders aren't already using pos's, which means like most scrub economics nerds what want to talk big here & have never actually traded or built anything in eve your ignoring the 0.75 speed bonus a pos gives.

3) Your assuming every roleplay hi-sec producer with his merlin blueprint is going say, holy **** guys i have to spend 4k extra an hour per slot, better go spend 2b+ to optimize my build.

VV;s idea is solid, i dont always agree with the nerd.


You know what I'm assuming? I'm impressed. I assumed nothing; merely exploring how to make the hisec NPC facilities more of an isk sink than they already are.

1) You're trying to appear smarter than you really are.

2) You're trying to appear smarter than you really are.

3) You're trying to appear smarter than you really are.

On counts 1 - 3 you have FAILED!

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#208 - 2013-02-27 00:19:53 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
When someone takes out a loan the money appears, like it's been created. This is true of all economies that use a fiat currency. This is how the western economies have become so bloated with debt; the ad hoc creation of money. It's what's causing inflation in eve, and I still assert the way to tackle it is to look at the real world and see the methods used to cope.


Except that ISK is not a Fiat currency. Its closest RL equivalent is specie because the NPC sources are extractive in nature (mining gold = ratting for ISK. Both are activity in return for the creation of money [in a strictly specie-backed monetary system, ofc].).

The NPC corps that create ISK do not behave like governments that issue fiat currency, they behave like mines that can be tapped for currency.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#209 - 2013-02-27 00:38:32 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:

If it promotes POS usage then the net effect would be a reduction in the sink as people move away from the NPC facilities.


1)your assuming build prices have a part in production, i mine my own minerals crowd & noobs will always use stations and ignore fees, some ppl just want to mine and build there own **** thats fine. (this is VV target)

2) your assuming major builders aren't already using pos's, which means like most scrub economics nerds what want to talk big here & have never actually traded or built anything in eve your ignoring the 0.75 speed bonus a pos gives.

3) Your assuming every roleplay hi-sec producer with his merlin blueprint is going say, holy **** guys i have to spend 4k extra an hour per slot, better go spend 2b+ to optimize my build.

VV;s idea is solid, i dont always agree with the nerd.


You know what I'm assuming? I'm impressed. I assumed nothing; merely exploring how to make the hisec NPC facilities more of an isk sink than they already are.

1) You're trying to appear smarter than you really are.

2) You're trying to appear smarter than you really are.

3) You're trying to appear smarter than you really are.

On counts 1 - 3 you have FAILED!


oh this thread, lol nice reply.

remove head from ass before post pls

@JerryTPepridge
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#210 - 2013-02-27 01:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:

NPC services. Increasing fees for using research and manufacturing queues. They are always active and represent an isk sink. This affects empire more than nulsec.

Naturally an option is to leave it as it is and hope for the best. That tends to be also a real world option.


Imo NPC research and industry slots should cost as much as POS slots.

That would be a first step to dis-incentivize pure hi sec production by null sec players, would be a first step at incentivizing POSes usage (and thus help ices markets and hi sec wardecs) and be a sensible ISK sink.


If it promotes POS usage then the net effect would be a reduction in the sink as people move away from the NPC facilities. I'm unaware of pos's using any NPC-sourced materials, so therefore they don't contribute to the isk sink. As a benefit of dissuading the nulsec alliances from hogging hisec resources, I agree, but that's for another topic.

An increase to the sink would be to charge for the entire time in the queue, not just for the active time. While that MAY drive people away from the NPC facilities, equally it may not. I believe the queues would shrink a bit but they wouldn't disappear, and each queue-hour would likely be sinking multiple amounts of isk.


Quote:
733,377,961 ISK spent installing manufacturing jobs - 326m of that going to player corporations


Production fees for a single day. At ~400m sunk, it's 12b a month. It could have been a slow day, but then again the day in question was a Sunday...in any case, it's probably safe to assume that the typical sink from build fees is low double digit billions, which makes them literally a rounding error in the ledger of sinks and faucets. That's a good argument for increasing them. A battleship costs .0015%-.002% of its sale price in build fees, something like a cruiser costs about .3%, a T1 large gun (425mm railgun I for example) is about .04%.

It'd be a bigger sink if the build fees were expressed as a percentage of input value. Even something like quarter percent (to say nothing of a full percent) would turn manufacturing fees into a meaningful sink without really affecting the actual price of goods on the market in a significant way.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#211 - 2013-02-27 01:49:32 UTC
^ this.

what it wont do is make ppl rush to grab pos's, sperg more mik, less book, more do

@JerryTPepridge
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#212 - 2013-02-27 03:40:13 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

Except that ISK is not a Fiat currency. Its closest RL equivalent is specie because the NPC sources are extractive in nature (mining gold = ratting for ISK. Both are activity in return for the creation of money [in a strictly specie-backed monetary system, ofc].).


iNTERESTING... an arguement that ISK is specie and not PLEX or assets... I'll have to think about this one 
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#213 - 2013-02-27 03:54:20 UTC
mynnna wrote:

Well, there is the saying that civil engineers design the targets and mechanical engineers design the bombs. Lol


I doubt they were that needed for Little Boy as much as the physicists ( the materials though very much required MECH-E's or CHEM-E's for spinning Uranium Hexafluoride? )
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#214 - 2013-02-27 03:54:31 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Except that ISK is not a Fiat currency. Its closest RL equivalent is specie because the NPC sources are extractive in nature (mining gold = ratting for ISK. Both are activity in return for the creation of money [in a strictly specie-backed monetary system, ofc].).


iNTERESTING... an arguement that ISK is specie and not PLEX or assets... I'll have to think about this one


Closest to. I'm pretty sure it deviates from behaving like actual specie, but it deviates much further from behaving like an actual fiat currency.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#215 - 2013-02-27 04:22:10 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
mynnna wrote:

Well, there is the saying that civil engineers design the targets and mechanical engineers design the bombs. Lol


I doubt they were that needed for Little Boy as much as the physicists ( the materials though very much required MECH-E's or CHEM-E's for spinning Uranium Hexafluoride? )


:cripes:

What I meant when I said "there is a saying" was really "there is a joke."

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#216 - 2013-02-27 06:50:17 UTC
mynnna wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
mynnna wrote:

Well, there is the saying that civil engineers design the targets and mechanical engineers design the bombs. Lol


I doubt they were that needed for Little Boy as much as the physicists ( the materials though very much required MECH-E's or CHEM-E's for spinning Uranium Hexafluoride? )


:cripes:

What I meant when I said "there is a saying" was really "there is a joke."


Jokes, on my internet?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
#217 - 2013-02-27 21:24:33 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

Except that ISK is not a Fiat currency. Its closest RL equivalent is specie because the NPC sources are extractive in nature (mining gold = ratting for ISK. Both are activity in return for the creation of money [in a strictly specie-backed monetary system, ofc].).

The NPC corps that create ISK do not behave like governments that issue fiat currency, they behave like mines that can be tapped for currency.


Mines produce a commodity that can be used to back a currency. Indeed, the commodity can be used. To what use could you put the corpses of the serpentis rats on which you claimed you bounty? If you issued paper backed by them what worth would it have, assuming anyone would even accept it?

A currency backed by corpses isn't fiat? I think it is.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#218 - 2013-03-01 20:09:17 UTC

NPC lab factories fees should be determined by making them completely free floating without limits.

When capacity is entirely consumed the price rises and when under utilised it should fall.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#219 - 2013-03-01 22:19:51 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Except that ISK is not a Fiat currency. Its closest RL equivalent is specie because the NPC sources are extractive in nature (mining gold = ratting for ISK. Both are activity in return for the creation of money [in a strictly specie-backed monetary system, ofc].).

The NPC corps that create ISK do not behave like governments that issue fiat currency, they behave like mines that can be tapped for currency.


Mines produce a commodity that can be used to back a currency. Indeed, the commodity can be used. To what use could you put the corpses of the serpentis rats on which you claimed you bounty? If you issued paper backed by them what worth would it have, assuming anyone would even accept it?

A currency backed by corpses isn't fiat? I think it is.


Mines produce Specie that doesn't just back currency, it was currency. Rats produce ISK that doesn't just back currency, it is currency.

Miners mine Specie, Ratters create ISK. See the equivalence?

You're arguing that a gold coin is a fiat currency.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
#220 - 2013-03-02 09:15:40 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Except that ISK is not a Fiat currency. Its closest RL equivalent is specie because the NPC sources are extractive in nature (mining gold = ratting for ISK. Both are activity in return for the creation of money [in a strictly specie-backed monetary system, ofc].).

The NPC corps that create ISK do not behave like governments that issue fiat currency, they behave like mines that can be tapped for currency.


Mines produce a commodity that can be used to back a currency. Indeed, the commodity can be used. To what use could you put the corpses of the serpentis rats on which you claimed you bounty? If you issued paper backed by them what worth would it have, assuming anyone would even accept it?

A currency backed by corpses isn't fiat? I think it is.


Mines produce Specie that doesn't just back currency, it was currency. Rats produce ISK that doesn't just back currency, it is currency.

Miners mine Specie, Ratters create ISK. See the equivalence?

You're arguing that a gold coin is a fiat currency.


Mines produce specie. I can hold it in my hand and raise paper against it.

Rats produce fiat. There is nothing tangible, no commodity, nothing backing it. I can't raise paper against it because it is already paper.

There is no equivalence. You are seeing things.

Indicate where I have stated that gold coin is fiat? Again: you are seeing things.

This attempt of yours to separate bounties from the problem of inflation has so far failed.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.