Jita Park Speakers Corner

Yeah, funny that....tell me, where in the minutes do we see anything about a change in mechanics to break the oligopoly?
Soundwave mentioned 8 months ago that he would like to introduce ring mining, but that has quietly disappeared off the radar. Since then, we have seen a protracted attack on high sec within the forums, by the CSM, and ultimately, CCP.

So tell you what, I will endorse putting null sec industry on a level playing field with high sec (which means ONLY higher refine rates in null stations and POS's), the same day that CCP announces that moon goo will ONLY show up only at minable rings, in randomized locations in systems 0.2 sec status and lower.

As I said, you guys won.
All I ask is you gloat quietly.

The mechanics are only silly in your view of the Eve world.
And now CCP's view, thanks to your propaganda.

CCP could end all this crap by publishing a few stats they can extract quite easily:
1. How many items/ships are produced at high sec stations, high sec POS's, low sec stations/low sec POS's /null sec stations/ null sec POS's.
2. How many mfg slots exist at POS's in high sec (turned on at any given moment) and how many mfg slots exist in high sec stations.
3. How many supercaps are being manufactured daily in null sec.

But there is no way null sec wants those facts coming to light.

See, you guys have neatly turned the discussion away from the fact that a supercarrier needs the minerals of approx 1000 battlecruisers. If people in general knew how huge null sec industry was in the supercap mfg dept, this entire campaign by you guys would have taken on a whole different tenor.

It does not take sharp mind to recognize that you guys are running a campaign of death by a 1000 cuts to high sec, until there is zero profitability left in it. You will continue your campaign, focusing on one part of high sec, until that is nerfed to your satisfaction, then work on another part, the bounce to another part again.

As I have said, I full expect your summer propaganda campaign to focus again in Incursions, stating that "people have adapted to the changes from May 2012, and are making 120M/ hour again, and that must be nerfed to achieve the risk/reward we all hold so dear in Eve." It is of course total lies, but that has never stopped a good propaganda campaign in the past.

Bottom line, the changes in industry will only work if CCP creates the ability to make as much null sec mining as your guys do running anoms, which means 100M /hour. Anything less and they won't start afk or botting miners. Well, if they are afk/ botting, they might go for 50M / hour, since it is afk.

Completely agree, which is why we have harped on null mining being broken for some time now. Central to this is the fact that anoms (where most mining is done) are horribly designed and only drop highends. Artificially depressing these minerals to such a degree that Nocxium is now worth as much as Zydrine.

There is no single magic bullet for fix null industry/taxation. It will require half a dozen or more smaller changes. The order of these changes being fairly important of course.

And this just shows your sense of entitlement.
You truly believe that someone in null sec should be making 10 times an hour what someone does in high sec.
This is what is so wrong with the null sec mentality.

Shouldn't you be rewarded more for putting yourself at more risk?

We have been asking for a new Diagoras since he quit. CCP either doesn't have anyone qualified to do it (the Recurve dude doesn't seem to know what is what yet) or is unwilling to have another public facing stats guy.

Until then, we use the information sources we have to push for change. Economic postings, as well as Diagoras. Some of the info was not Diagoras but blogs on production.

We only enjoy that because of jita, and the hi sec markets. In Hi sec you cannot totally camp out the stations, so trade markets can form in them. So if you are in null and want to manufacture or so, its hard to get the mats, since if there was a big market, most likely it would be camped by alliances until it was destroyed.

So if you make stuff in null, you have to fly to hi sec, where no one will gank you unless you carry too much. Buy the stuff there (the only place you can) take it back to null. Hi sec will never have to go to null sec to buy materials, since a market can never really be created down there. So that with the natural good refining and slots hi sec has, makes it overpowered.

Of Course I naturally like the checks and balances between hi and null sec. Hi sec gets the stations slots and refining, but no good materials to refine and create products with. Null sec gets all the cool materials, but its harder to refine and have slots to make things with.

The problem from that checks and balances is that hi sec has a market hub, since its kind of gank free. But null sec doesn't have anything like that to compare with.

Just imagine in hi seccers had to travel and deal with the risks of null sec to gain materials from markets or something, then carry them to hi sec, for production. Or you could freighter stuff in from null to sell to hi seccers at a higher rate, since they didn't want to deal with the risk.

But like I said, everyone in null will blow anything up, so Hi sec gets the cake when it comes to manufacturing and production.

Go to null to destroy, but go to hi sec to create or something.

He's wrong; you're right.

An even playing field will still see most industry conducted in high sec.

Null sec advantages: bigger roids, access to rare ores, freedom from low level harassment like bumping. Rorqual boosts which are stronger than orca boosts, compression, availability of certain high end pos modules including reactors and csaas.

Disadvantages: outposts often have very limited slots, slot prices are set by the outpost owner and can be very expensive, cloaky campers, fast roving gangs, logon traps etc, limit of one outpost per system plus many systems are empty, imports have to move through hostile space etc. POSes can be attacked and your assets that are inside a pos module that requires cpu (CHA, assembly arrays etc) can be locked down while you're asleep.

Also it's worth noting how uneven the playing field in nullsec is. Somewhere like Providence is a mosaic of different alliances and a mecca for roving gangs. You'd have to be insane to do industry or mining there. Other parts are surrounded by blues and you're generally pretty untroubled.

If the vision for nullsec is as a place where smaller outfits can operate the insecurity of assets needs to be addressed. We could claim a system today, set up poses and move datacores, bpos etc there then log on tomorrow and find the poses are reinforced and we'll never get our stuff back. This means that even in nullsec most manufacturers export to high sec and run jobs there on alts rather than risk it in insecure space. Or use NPC stations.

There's also standings issues. In a large alliance management is mean with roles to limit damage from thieves and spies. They have to be. This means that they can't simply hand out POS roles to everyone who wants to make their own ammo.

As for the impact on high sec manufacturers of a tougher regime in high sec - you'll make more money not less. If the cost of making Merlins goes up, the price of Merlins goes up and it's likely you will claim a high %. There might be specific cases where some idiot sells them for below mineral cost but that happens now precisely because it's so trivial to make stuff in high sec. You just make a different product.

So there really is no harm tweaking high sec refining and slot availability and cost to match the rest of Eve. It's in fact a minimum starting point towards making industry viable everywhere in the game.

I think two changes can improve nulsec markets... remove corporation tax rate limitation to include taxes on all professions and pay scales; and region-less market hub access with NPC shipping.

1) A new pay rate needs to be identified for each worker/job type, allowing payrole/tax rate for everyone (pve & pvp) to include miners/industry. Workers' pay rates advertised via the user interface and taxed equally for all pvp/pve workers. The main difference is if you are online, whether docked or undocked, you are earning pay. If you are earning pay, you are earning tax for a corporation, whether NPC or player corp.
2) Region-less market hub (Jita/Citadel/Sinq Laison, Verge Vendor/etc) access. Jita-market access from any station with the option for player/NPC shipping would give customers more flexibility. Additional time is required for secure NPC shipment, but customers can bank on the fact the shipment will arrive, even if players refuse to ship it.

That is basically it, but details and explanations included below.

Corporate taxes (tax rate - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Corporation_management_guide) "Tax Rate refers to how much of a Corporation member's income goes into the Corporation's wallet. It's however limited to Mission Rewards, Bonus Rewards and NPC Bounty and applies only, if the amount is 100,000.00 ISK or higher. " to include all aspects of industry such as mining, research, invention, manufacturing, shipping/courier/transport, and refining. Trade (such as day trading), pvp roam members, pve mining fleet guard duty, and drug manufacturing could also be included to cover "all the bases". Original post on the subject May 2011... corp tax idea I made on my alt DetCord Saisio.

Once a corporation's bottom line is affected by income from other workers, all the members of the corporation will naturally migrate towards protecting those assets that earn the most profit. A very profitable industrial wing in nul would garner attention from pirates as well as guard/escort assets, due to adding this corp tax. Increased taxable income means more corporation taxes collected. The payout for doing all those activities in low/nul security space should be more due to the risk involved. So, doing a level 5 in lowsec earns less than level 5 in nul, same goes for all activities as system security decreases.

Region-less access to Jita/market hub markets would allow any location to be like your local Walmart with Jita/market hub prices. Demand for goods across all regions would remain the same, but that demand would be reflected in Jita markets. You will be able to quickly buy/sell goods at fair prices locally with less down-time. Rush delivery and insurance charges would increase final purchase price of goods, but would ensure delivery happens. Attacks made on NPC delivery packages would create demand for escort/guard services to ensure goods arrive safely by increasing delivery costs.

As the purchase price of "good x" increases in comparison to Jita/market hub price, speed and quality of delivery increase. The NPC option for shipping would allow customers to bank on a delivery window, which is not currently available. Pirates would be able to create an income stream from delivery of goods in their controlled space, whether that means they actually transport the goods, guard them, or destroy them.

Removing the need for as many buyers/sellers to remain in market hubs like Jita/market hubs would allow for more time for other activities. Additionally, if the market in Jita/market hubs reflected not just the demand for goods in Jita but throughout New Eden, the market can respond to changes more efficiently.

*Note: there is even potential for focused types of corporations to be created out of this, allowing for advantages for specialization in that profession/field/specialized work environment. Combat corps (lethal mercenary army), production corps (ultra-efficient factory), research corps (design/invent new products), et. al.

Please feel free to add more to this, flesh this out, or disagree. But please explain your thoughts on why you agree, disagree, or think it would not work. I feel the missing elements in corporation taxes and market access has always detracted from EvE's potential.